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 Post subject: de bheirim
PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov 2025 11:51 pm 
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Location: Denver, Colorado
From An t-Oileánach:

Quote:
De bheirim ’on diabhal thu, maran luath do dhein meig díot!


The English is 'Devil take you, how soon you've collapsed!'. The copy edited by Seán Ó Coileáin says Do bheirim 'on diabhal thu.

My question is what is up with this do/de? Beirim is present tense, but do is usually used for other tenses/as a particle. I just did a quick word search on David's dictionary (go raibh míle maith agat, a Dháivid) and got his entry for do bheirim an diabhal 'I do declare'. Is it safe to assume that beir is just one of the irregular verbs that was originally combined with the early Old Irish prefix ad (e.g. cím < chím < do chím < early ad·cím)?? As far as I know (and I know very little of Old Irish), the verb beir didn't traditionally had a prefix (beirid in Old Irish), though the prefixed as·beir evolved into Irish abair, so perhaps the prefix just came along in modern Irish analogously to other verbs (such as do-chím)?

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


Last edited by Séamus O'Neill on Mon 01 Dec 2025 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: de bheirim
PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec 2025 12:10 am 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
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I like to have a hyphen in do-bheirim nowadays - it is the absolute form of the verb, and corresponds to tugaim in later Irish. Tugaim don diabhal thu has the same meaning.

Do-bheirim 'on diabhal - this makes more sense to me without "thu", but maybe Ó Criomththain's usage was like that.

I don't understand why Ó Coileán has "do diabhal" there.

There are two verbs - which are confused:
1. Do-bheirim, ní thugaim, tabhairt - to give.
2. Beirim, ní bheirim, breith - to bring.

But the one verb is often given for the other.

Maran - if not with the copula.

I'll be damned if you did not .... quickly. {I can't see the rest of the sentence while I'm typing in this box.]

I think Labhrás would be better to comment on the historical origin of the do-bheirim/beirim forms and how they compare with do-chím.


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 Post subject: Re: de bheirim
PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec 2025 12:36 am 
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Location: Denver, Colorado
Thank you. Apologies, that was a typo: I meant to write Do bheirim 'on diabhal thu

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar


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 Post subject: Re: de bheirim
PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec 2025 1:54 am 
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I have just come across an instance where these verbs are confused. In my glossary to Seanmóin agus Trí Fichid (on the verge of finalisation for publication), I have:

Dhá thaobh an scéil a bhreith/thabhairt leat, “to play both sides of the story, to side with both sides in a dispute, to have it both ways”


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 Post subject: Re: de bheirim
PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec 2025 3:01 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
I like to have a hyphen in do-bheirim nowadays - it is the absolute form of the verb, and corresponds to tugaim in later Irish. Tugaim don diabhal thu has the same meaning.

Do-bheirim 'on diabhal - this makes more sense to me without "thu", but maybe Ó Criomththain's usage was like that.

I don't understand why Ó Coileán has "do diabhal" there.


Do-bheirim don diabhal thú = I give you to the devil, literally.

Quote:
I think Labhrás would be better to comment on the historical origin of the do-bheirim/beirim forms and how they compare with do-chím.


Independent deuterotonic verb form with (unstressed) preverb do- (dependent prototonic form with stressed ta- in tabhair).
Why it is indep. deuterotonic do-chím but "prototonic" dependent feic, I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: de bheirim
PostPosted: Mon 01 Dec 2025 4:17 pm 
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Irish apparently has no expletives, but in fact phrases with diabhal can be expletive-equivalents. I'm thinking of how in Finnish Perkele, which comes from the name of the god of thunder, is used as one of the worst expletives. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkele for an explanation.

Do-bheirim 'on diabhal = damn!, damn it!, fuck it!, fuck me!, I'll be damned (if.. má, if not.. mara)

Although do-bheirim 'on diabhal thu means "I give you to the Devil", that cannot be a good English translation. Maybe this means "damn", but the thu specifies that you are commenting on the other person (thu): damn! I'll be blowed if you were not quickly reduced to silence! (that is what I understand it to mean, after looking at meig on teanglann).


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