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PostPosted: Mon 14 Oct 2024 1:19 pm 
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English translations of Jeremiah 3:13 are quite consistent on the mention of "Under every green tree." Now, usually when looking at Irish translations I look at the ABN, but in this case there is no mention of a green tree.
______________________________________________
Jeremiah 3:13 (Revised Catholic Translation)
Only acknowledge your guilt,
that you have rebelled against the LORD your God,
and scattered your favours among strangers under every green tree,
and have not obeyed my voice,
says the LORD.

King James:
Only acknowledge thine iniquity,
that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God,
and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree,
and ye have not obeyed my voice,
saith the LORD.

ABN:
Ach amháin admhaigh do chionta:
an chaoi ar éirigh tú in aghaidh an Tiarna do Dhia
gur imigh ag spallaíocht le strainséirí
agus nár umhlaigh do mo ghuthsa–is é an Tiarna a labhraíonn.

_______________________________________________________________


Could I just add "faoi ​​gach crann glas" to line 3 of the ABN and this would all be good? I propose the following:

Ach amháin admhaigh do chionta:
an chaoi ar éirigh tú in aghaidh an Tiarna do Dhia
gur imigh ag spallaíocht le strainséirí faoi ​​gach crann glas
agus nár umhlaigh do mo ghuthsa–is é an Tiarna a labhraíonn.

That being said, I wouldn't mind one of the Irish genius's that hangs out on this forum to give me an entirely fresh translation. My main source of learning Irish is Teach Yourself Irish, which is a Munster dialect.

Thank you so much!!!


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Oct 2024 2:21 pm 
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Posts: 500
Location: Corcaigh
msv133 wrote:
English translations of Jeremiah 3:13 are quite consistent on the mention of "Under every green tree." Now, usually when looking at Irish translations I look at the ABN, but in this case there is no mention of a green tree.
______________________________________________
Jeremiah 3:13 (Revised Catholic Translation)
Only acknowledge your guilt,
that you have rebelled against the LORD your God,
and scattered your favours among strangers under every green tree,
and have not obeyed my voice,
says the LORD.

King James:
Only acknowledge thine iniquity,
that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God,
and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree,
and ye have not obeyed my voice,
saith the LORD.

ABN:
Ach amháin admhaigh do chionta:
an chaoi ar éirigh tú in aghaidh an Tiarna do Dhia
gur imigh ag spallaíocht le strainséirí
agus nár umhlaigh do mo ghuthsa–is é an Tiarna a labhraíonn.

_______________________________________________________________


Could I just add "faoi ​​gach crann glas" to line 3 of the ABN and this would all be good? I propose the following:

Ach amháin admhaigh do chionta:
an chaoi ar éirigh tú in aghaidh an Tiarna do Dhia
gur imigh ag spallaíocht le strainséirí faoi ​​gach crann glas
agus nár umhlaigh do mo ghuthsa–is é an Tiarna a labhraíonn.

That being said, I wouldn't mind one of the Irish genius's that hangs out on this forum to give me an entirely fresh translation. My main source of learning Irish is Teach Yourself Irish, which is a Munster dialect.

Thank you so much!!!


I'm running out the door, so I can't look too far into this right now, but you're mistranslating "green" if you use glas in this context. This is because the "green tree" of the English translations you're familiar with is intended imply deciduous trees, not merely trees of a green colour. You can see this when you compare the original Latin:

et dispersisti vias tuas alienis sub omni ligno frondoso
"and that you have spread your ways to strangers, under every leafy tree"


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PostPosted: Mon 14 Oct 2024 4:50 pm 
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Glas is fine in this sentence, as it refers to leafy greenness and not to, e.g., the bright green of a paint. In fact, I wince when I see Irish sportsmen wearing a Kermit the frog green suit at the Olympics, thinking that this is an Irish national colour. The Kermit the frog green is uaithne; the Irish green as in the Wearing of the Green should be glas, the colour of leaves and vegetation, not a garish bright green.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire translated this: agus gur scaipis do shlite chun eachtrannach fé gach crann glas, agus nár éistis lem ghlór, adeir an Tiarna


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 12:05 pm 
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Location: Corcaigh
djwebb2021 wrote:
Glas is fine in this sentence, as it refers to leafy greenness and not to, e.g., the bright green of a paint. In fact, I wince when I see Irish sportsmen wearing a Kermit the frog green suit at the Olympics, thinking that this is an Irish national colour. The Kermit the frog green is uaithne; the Irish green as in the Wearing of the Green should be glas, the colour of leaves and vegetation, not a garish bright green.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire translated this: agus gur scaipis do shlite chun eachtrannach fé gach crann glas, agus nár éistis lem ghlór, adeir an Tiarna


Glas is only fine in this sentence if you're trying to translate directly from the English to Irish (which seems to be what PUL has done). In this case, however, that would be a mistake, as you would loose the original context, that these are trees with leaves and not evergreens. Even modern English bibles should probably avoid using "green" in this verse anymore, as it doesn't still have the same connotations as it did when the KJB was created. Glas, as a colour, can refer to the green of both deciduous and coniferous trees, but clearly the latter are intended to be excluded by this verse.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 1:43 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Glas is fine in this sentence, as it refers to leafy greenness and not to, e.g., the bright green of a paint. In fact, I wince when I see Irish sportsmen wearing a Kermit the frog green suit at the Olympics, thinking that this is an Irish national colour. The Kermit the frog green is uaithne; the Irish green as in the Wearing of the Green should be glas, the colour of leaves and vegetation, not a garish bright green.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire translated this: agus gur scaipis do shlite chun eachtrannach fé gach crann glas, agus nár éistis lem ghlór, adeir an Tiarna


I just recently learned that the original Irish flag is solid green with a harp on it. Some of the versions I see have the harp with breasts, or even arched in a sexual way, which I'd wager are not the original design.

Is there a place I can purchase the OG flag? Solid lush green with a normal harp?


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 3:57 pm 
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Posts: 168
msv133 wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Glas is fine in this sentence, as it refers to leafy greenness and not to, e.g., the bright green of a paint. In fact, I wince when I see Irish sportsmen wearing a Kermit the frog green suit at the Olympics, thinking that this is an Irish national colour. The Kermit the frog green is uaithne; the Irish green as in the Wearing of the Green should be glas, the colour of leaves and vegetation, not a garish bright green.

As Peadar Ua Laoghaire translated this: agus gur scaipis do shlite chun eachtrannach fé gach crann glas, agus nár éistis lem ghlór, adeir an Tiarna


I just recently learned that the original Irish flag is solid green with a harp on it. Some of the versions I see have the harp with breasts, or even arched in a sexual way, which I'd wager are not the original design.

Is there a place I can purchase the OG flag? Solid lush green with a normal harp?


What you are describing is what has now come to be regarded as the Leinster flag, or at least the Leinster coat of arms. Here's a couple of links that sell them.

https://www.flyingcolours.org/leinster-flag/
https://flagman.ie/product/leinster-province-flag/

As stated above, I agree that the bright green should be avoided. Whereas, deep green looks bolder or stronger, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 7:10 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
What you are describing is what has now come to be regarded as the Leinster flag, or at least the Leinster coat of arms. Here's a couple of links that sell them.

https://www.flyingcolours.org/leinster-flag/
https://flagman.ie/product/leinster-province-flag/

As stated above, I agree that the bright green should be avoided. Whereas, deep green looks bolder or stronger, in my opinion.


The flagman.ie one is particularly appropriate in terms of colour.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 7:24 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Glas is only fine in this sentence if you're trying to translate directly from the English to Irish (which seems to be what PUL has done). In this case, however, that would be a mistake, as you would loose the original context, that these are trees with leaves and not evergreens. Even modern English bibles should probably avoid using "green" in this verse anymore, as it doesn't still have the same connotations as it did when the KJB was created. Glas, as a colour, can refer to the green of both deciduous and coniferous trees, but clearly the latter are intended to be excluded by this verse.


I don't know why there is a preference on this forum to argue about nothing. You appear not to know what an evergreen tree is: they have leaves too. In fact, the difference between evergreens and deciduous trees is that evergreens keep their leaves all year round. There is nothing in Jeremiah 3 that refers to the difference between evergreen and deciduous trees--or coniferous trees (which are trees that reproduce via seed-bearing cones, and are mostly evergreens). It is mystifying to me why you have inferred a detailed discussion of the difference between various types of trees into a simple sentence.

The Douay has (Jeremiah 3:13):

Quote:
But yet acknowledge thy iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God: and thou hast scattered thy ways to strangers under every green tree, and hast not heard my voice, saith the Lord.


There is no further discussion of trees in the chapter apart from "she hath gone out of herself upon every high mountain, and under every green tree" in Jeremiah 3:6. This is not a discussion of evergreens, deciduous and coniferous trees.

The Latin contains the word "frondoso" - meaning leafy (all the tree types above are leafy, as are all trees). Peadar Ua Laoghaire was a reader of Latin, and will have been aware of the Vulgate text, as will the translators of the Douay-Rheims Bible, who clearly felt "green tree" a more idiomatic translation in English. "Crann glas" does indeed mean "leafy tree" in Irish. You could also say "crann fé dhuilliúr", but "crann glas" is idiomatically correct here.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 10:16 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:

I don't know why there is a preference on this forum to argue about nothing. You appear not to know what an evergreen tree is: they have leaves too. In fact, the difference between evergreens and deciduous trees is that evergreens keep their leaves all year round. There is nothing in Jeremiah 3 that refers to the difference between evergreen and deciduous trees--or coniferous trees (which are trees that reproduce via seed-bearing cones, and are mostly evergreens). It is mystifying to me why you have inferred a detailed discussion of the difference between various types of trees into a simple sentence.


You're just annoyed because I plainly demonstrated PUL was wrong about something. :LOL:

Look, it's simple, frondoso is the Latin word used in this verse. It doesn't mean "green" it means "leafy" or abounding in foliage. Any later translation which does not accurately represent this is incorrect. No, the needles of conifers do not fit this description.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Oct 2024 10:43 pm 
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Ade wrote:
You're just annoyed because I plainly demonstrated PUL was wrong about something. :LOL:

Look, it's simple, frondoso is the Latin word used in this verse. It doesn't mean "green" it means "leafy" or abounding in foliage. Any later translation which does not accurately represent this is incorrect. No, the needles of conifers do not fit this description.


I think different nations have their different personalities. I have come to realise that arguments over nothing and spídiúchán of all sorts are very very typical of Irish people. In fact, Peadar Ua Laoghaire commented on this when he described the Irish as typically do-thíosach. If you look at the shocking way Dave Smith, a kindly old man, was treated on this forum, you can also see this unpleasant behaviour. English people have their typical faults -- a kind of false, nicey-niceness is quite typical, and ultimately unpleasant while appearing superficially pleasant.

Peadar Ua Laoghaire outranks you when it comes to Irish - take that one on the chin.


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