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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jun 2022 8:36 pm 
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I'm in the Little Rock Gaelic Athletic Club and we're searching for a proper translation for Little Rock. So far we've come up with Carraigín and Carraig Bheag, but I'm not quite clear on the differences between "-ín" and "beag" as far as translating "little".

Also if there is any established translation for Arkansas, that would also be helpful. Go raibh maith agaibh!


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jun 2022 10:36 pm 
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There is a town with that name in Tipperary, Carrickbeg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrickbeg

The difference is that the Irish for that uses the article "an" (the) before it so it comes out a little differently to what you have: An Charraig Bheag. But I don't think it makes a difference whether you use the article or not.

Then there is a village not far from there called Carrigeen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrigeen

So either would work. It's up to you which one to choose.

As for Arkansas, it would probably remain the same in Irish, or changed to fit the orthography of the Irish language: [Árcanso?] (Please don't use this without getting further input on orthography and spelling.) Often, place names like this are not translatable. Again, I refer to Wikipedia University and the following quote:

"The name Arkansas initially applied to the Arkansas River. It derives from a French term, Arcansas, their plural term for their transliteration of akansa, an Algonquian term for the Quapaw people . . . Akansa is likely also the root term for Kansas, which was named after the related Kaw people."

There may be translations from those languages for the names of those people but getting into a "translation" into Irish starts to border on the ridiculous. But there is one interesting comment about the capital of Kansas, Topeka:

"The name of Topeka, capital city of Kansas, is said to be the Kaw word Tó Ppí Kˀé meaning 'a good place to grow potatoes'."

Get more input on this before you decide anything permanent.

Cheers,

Tim


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jun 2022 10:57 pm 
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GRMA Tim!

Does the addition of the lenition change the pronunciation of "carraig"?

And, if going with "An Charraig Bheag", would the full name of our club be beat written as "Cumann Lúthchleas Gael An Charraig Bheag", or would the "an" (and its lenition) no longer apply?


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun 2022 4:49 am 
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If you are using the phrase as it is (i.e. An Charraig Bheag") then the initial "ch" would be pronounced like a rough "h", like the "ch" in "loch" or German "ich".

In your case, the phrase changes to another form (genitive, i.e. "possessive" or "of" form) and would look like the following in context:

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael Na Carraige Bige

Then the initial "c" would sound similar to English, actually the same would be fine.

Make sure you get more input and/or confirmation on this to get something correct.

Cheers,

Tim


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun 2022 11:00 am 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
If you are using the phrase as it is (i.e. An Charraig Bheag") then the initial "ch" would be pronounced like a rough "h", like the "ch" in "loch" or German "ich".

The sounds in "loch" and "ich" differ. Both sounds (broad and slender) occur in German and Irish.
In "Charraig", it is the loch sound.

The "ich" sound occurs in "Lúthchleas"

Quote:
In your case, the phrase changes to another form (genitive, i.e. "possessive" or "of" form) and would look like the following in context:

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael Na Carraige Bige

"Na" is usually spelled with lower-case n inside of phrases/names:

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael na Carraige Bige


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun 2022 12:47 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
If you are using the phrase as it is (i.e. An Charraig Bheag") then the initial "ch" would be pronounced like a rough "h", like the "ch" in "loch" or German "ich".

The sounds in "loch" and "ich" differ. Both sounds (broad and slender) occur in German and Irish.
In "Charraig", it is the loch sound.

The "ich" sound occurs in "Lúthchleas"


I was trying to approach an approximation with something the poster may be familiar with. The differences aren't really that great and since the phrase doesn't include it anyway, it's a moot point.

Quote:
In your case, the phrase changes to another form (genitive, i.e. "possessive" or "of" form) and would look like the following in context:

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael Na Carraige Bige
"Na" is usually spelled with lower-case n inside of phrases/names:

Cumann Lúthchleas Gael na Carraige Bige


Thanks for pointing that out.


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun 2022 5:07 am 
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Sorry to spin back so late to this, can someone explain why Carraig Bheag becomes Carraige Bige in the genitive?

I understand the noun "carraig" changing to the genitive (as the Club is "of" the Rock), but the adjective "little" is describing the now genitive Rock and not the Club. Is it the case that adjectives describing genitives themselves become genitive? Or is this common with placenames?

Go raibh míle maith agat for all the help so far, it is much appreciated!


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun 2022 8:19 am 
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Casualobserver12 wrote:
Is it the case that adjectives describing genitives themselves become genitive? Or is this common with place names?


Yes, to the first question. It's simply one of the rules of Irish grammar. And I imagine place names follow the rules of the language.

Maybe someone else can give you more explanation, or a confirmation on what I have posted.

Cheers,

Tim


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun 2022 8:46 am 
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Casualobserver12 wrote:
Is it the case that adjectives describing genitives themselves become genitive?

Yes. Adjectives have case forms. So if the noun is in the genitive, the adjective is also put into the genitive. Adjectives will also match the noun in number as well, so if the noun is plural the adjective will be in its plural form. Also the adjective will be put into a genitive form that matches the gender of the noun. So if the adjective follows a feminine word, it will get a genitive form like that of a feminine noun (Typically: Make ending slender + add "e").

This is like most languages with cases, e.g. Latin, Greek, Russian, Hindi.

I'd just note that when actually speaking day to day most native speakers don't really do this anymore. If there's an adjective on the noun typically neither the noun nor the adjective are put in the genitive. However the genitive is still very common in writing. I've a friend who although he'd say "Barr an Charraig Bheag", he would write "Barr na Carraige Bige".

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