I'm considering getting a tattoo in Ogham. I've been looking for something somewhat unique for sometime and saw an Ogham tattoo and really liked it, but I have a few questions.

Should I simply transliterate my kids names in their English form to Ogham or should I translate to Irish first? I realise Ogham itself is not a language and is just a simple alphabet but I wasn't sure if it would be considered wrong or inappropriate in anyway.

If I were to translate to Irish first, I was hoping I could get some help with the names. I've done some research already but I don't 100% trust web based translators.

Gabriel : This is originally a hebrew name, I found some sites says there is no Irish translation and other sites say "Gaibrial, Gaibriéil, Gaibriél" would be the Irish versions of the name.

Julia : From what I've been able to find this is the anglicised version of Iúile, does that look right? There is no distinction between long and short vowels in Ogham, so "ú" would just be "u" from what I can tell.

Kiera : Google doesn't like this, it keeps asking if I meant Keira instead. Anyway, I was able to find Ciara as the Irish translation.

I was also thinking about getting the word Father done as well, which I believe is Athair.

I would appreciate any help with this.

Thanks,
Will

First things first: Names don't "translate." Sometimes they have distinctive pronunciations and spellings in one language or another, but that's not the same thing as a "translation."

Second, the only names that have Irish forms are names that were Irish to begin with, have long-standing association with Ireland, or, in some cases, Biblical and saints names.

"Kiera" is one of several Anglicized versions of the Irish name "Ciara" -- "Ciara" is NOT an Irish translation of the English name "Kiera"!

"Julia" is a Latin name, and the Irish cognate is "Iúile."

Any of the renderings of Gabriel would work. They're all just phonetic renderings of the English version of that Hebrew name.

Yes, "Athair" is "Father."

Redwolf

Thanks Redwolf, good thing I found this site and checked here first.

So it sounds like I should probably just use the names as they are instead of trying to use an Irish cognate.

The Ogham alphabet does not have a K or a J. It does have multi-use letters so a K would be either a C or a Q and J would be a I (which is also used for Y). In this case for Kiera the K would probably be a C and not a Q.

The Irish language does not have j,k,q,v,w, or x (you will find "j" and "v" in some modern loan words), so the correct spelling of that name is "Ciara."

Redwolf

Most transliteration sites for Ogham use I for the J in Julia, would that be correct then? It's kind of odd that they said these are multi-use letters in Ogham, as I don't believe the I in Irish is pronounced anything like a J. From what I've read "Iu" would be pronounced more like "oo", so Iulia would sound like oo-li-ah?

They're going with the Latin pronunciation: YOO-lee-uh.

You have to take these Ogham sites with a huge grain of salt, I'm afraid. While Ogham was phonetic, it was used to write Primative Irish, Pictish, and Latin (where they're probably getting most of their pronunciations).

If you want to do this for fun, that's fine, but I wouldn't put too much trust in its accuracy.

Redwolf

I was hoping to get it as accurate as possible, I didn't want to end up like those people with tattoo's of Chinese characters who think it means something deep like "Hope" or "Destiny" only to find out it actually means "Mad Diarrhea" or something considerably less deep and meaningful.

I realise that's a bit of a stretch in this case, these aren't complicated logograms that could have multiple meaning but are just simple letter substitutions. However since this will be permanent I'd like to get as close as possible. Knowing that no one I know has any idea what Ogham is I won't have to explain the substitutions for two of the letters but I'll still know, so I have to decide how much that's going to bother me. But knowing my luck the day after I get it done I'll bump into some polyglot who will ask me why my tattoo says "Iulia"

Ogham works on sound, though, not on letters.

Redwolf

I’m not sure if this would suit at all, but I’ll supply some hypothetical Pritmitive Irish forms of these names here just to consider

Gabriel: borrowed into Latin from Greek from Hebrew. So instantly very hard to render in Irish (Semitic > Hellenic > Italic > Celtic)! Old Irish simply retains Latin form, Gabriel. The clusted -ie- isn’t native to irish, the closest being either -ei- > -é-, or -e- > -ia-, hence the modern Gaibrial. A hypothetical (and in no way historical) Celtic form would by *Gabirelos > *GABIRELAS > OIr. *Gaibrel > Mod. *Gaibhreal, which doesn’t have the vowel cluster at all, though.

Julia: from Latin Iūlia, a feminine form of the gens (family) name Iūlius. It is supposedly a contraction of the Old Latin Iovilios “descending from Jove/Jupiter”. So lets take an archaic feminine form Iovilia and borrow across as a feminine iā-stem, perhaps like IULIA in a Latin-like form (attested rendition of Latin iu- in Ogham, see IUSTI for genitive of Latin Iustus < PIt. *jowestos), or more natural IULE (see reduction of iā: *mailyās > MAILE- > OIr. Máel- > Mod.Ir. Maol-).

Kiera: the actual Ogham inscription CERAN(I) (genitive of Cérán > Cíarán, modern Ciarán) exists, and the nominative form would be CERAGNAS (later CERAN(N)AS > Cérán > Cíarán > Ciarán). The name Ciara (> Kiera/Keira) is a feminine form of Cíar (mod. Ciar) from the adjective ciar < OIr: cíar < cér < PIr: *CERAS < PC: *ceros < PIE: *ḱey-ro-. I believe the addition of -a to feminize names was inherited from Latin nomenclature, but the feminine ending -ā of Celtic has the same origin and function in nouns/adjectives. So the hypothetical feminine adjective “dark” in Celtic should be *cerā, which yeilds *CERA in Primitive Irish (Ogham). This is the attested name of Saint Ciara (Cera) from 7th century, also.

Father: Mod. athair < Old. ath(a)ir < PC: ɸatīr < PIE: ph₂tḗr, with no attested Primitive Irish/Ogham form, but would presumably be AT(T)IR – Stair na Gaeilge gives *atīr.

So recap:
Gabriel: GABIRELAS pronounced /gav(i)relah/
Julia: IULIA or IULE
Kiera: CERA
Father: ATIR or ATTIR pronounced /aθi:r/
In conclusion, both Gabirel and Julia are very hard to render in Ogham, while Kiera/Father can be theorised with more certainty….
Therefore, it might be best just to transcribe Gabriel/Julia as GABRIEL and IULIA...

That is the most beautiful thing I have seen in weeks. Thank you, Embarien! Thank you a thousand!!!!



I actually did a presentation about this in a Japanese class once. It was very very easy to stock my presentation with examples just by looking for "Japanese tattoo" on google. My favorite was a man with the tattoo "grand concubine"


Now to address your concerns, Will, if you want Ogham to accurately reflect your children's names, the best approach could be to think about them phonetically and then write them thusly.
For example, "Gabriel" could probably be rendered as "GEIBRIEL" or "GEIBRIYEL" "Julia" could conceivably be either "GYULIYA" or "DYULIYA" or whatnot.

I, personally, would probably go with Embarien's versions, but that is more of a historical / ancient feel than an 'accurate' one which you seem to be seeking.

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