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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov 2015 1:38 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
I guess the issue also arises with things that only have one article in English: 'a book of the library' (would that be leabhar de chuid ag an leabharlann?)


... de chuid na leabharlainne

galaxyrocker wrote:
I also believe another issue is translating between the 'of' use of the genitive and the Saxon genitive. In English, 'the book of the library' just sounds weird, and it gets confusing going between that and 'the library's book' and such. Sorry if I'm not clear, mobile isn't great for this haha


Oh, I thought it is the same. But English isn't my native language.



Thanks! I guess, semantically, they are the same... But I wouldn't really use of "of" structure in most cases. Like "The computer of the library" would be much less used than "the library's computer"


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Sat 07 Nov 2015 12:29 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
An Lon Dubh wrote:
Also on a mobile, but just to say there used to be a difference between (3) and (4).

Bróg chailín = a girly shoe (a shoe for a girl)

Bróg cailín = a girl's shoe

Some native speakers would still make this distinction.


I'd think: bróg cailín = a shoe for a girl

See Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla p.351:

culaith mairnéalaigh = sailor's uniform
culaith mhairnéalaigh = sailor suit

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Sat 07 Nov 2015 12:33 am 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
That's interesting ALD. Is it solely marked by lenition?

It's really that when the genitive is meant adjectivally it would then be lenited like any adjective after a feminine noun. If it's meant as an indefinite possessor then there is no lenition.

This is part of the whole subject of dynamic lenition in Irish, I'll find more examples, but it's very rare for native speakers to do any of this today. It's more a part of 19th century grammar.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov 2015 8:26 pm 
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So, I'd like to bring this back up for people who speak a different dialect of me. Does "The school library" = "the library of the school" for y'all? For me, it can't reflect a particular school, but instead a particular library (that of a school) (i.e. "The library of a school"), with "the library of the school" being "The school's library". But there was someone, from Dublin (just so y'all know roughly what dialect), on Duolingo arguing that "the school library" is for a specific school, thus should be the translated as "leabharlann na scoile" rather than "an leabharlann scoile", as my dialect would suggest.


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov 2015 10:21 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
So, I'd like to bring this back up for people who speak a different dialect of me. Does "The school library" = "the library of the school" for y'all? For me, it can't reflect a particular school, but instead a particular library (that of a school) (i.e. "The library of a school"), with "the library of the school" being "The school's library". But there was someone, from Dublin (just so y'all know roughly what dialect), on Duolingo arguing that "the school library" is for a specific school, thus should be the translated as "leabharlann na scoile" rather than "an leabharlann scoile", as my dialect would suggest.

Well to me:

The school's library = Leabharlann na scoile

The school library = An leabharlann scoile (i.e. a library of the school type)

In English, I'd only ever say "The school library" when contrasting with another library, i.e. "Oh we can't have the play in the Canal library, the school library would be better."

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov 2015 10:25 pm 
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I am about to do the unthinkable and ask a dialectal question about English!! I hope the fíor-Ghaeil who watch over us from the big Gaeltacht in the sky can forgive me.

galaxyrocker wrote:
for y'all?

Do you use the reflexive dative in your speech? Like "Y'all need to get y'all a fan"?

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive
PostPosted: Wed 11 Nov 2015 10:28 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
I am about to do the unthinkable and ask a dialectal question about English!! I hope the fíor-Ghaeil who watch over us from the big Gaeltacht in the sky can forgive me.

galaxyrocker wrote:
for y'all?

Do you use the reflexive dative in your speech? Like "Y'all need to get y'all a fan"?



I'm sure he will forgive you, because the reflexive dative is interesting. But, yes, I do. At least when talking dialectally, though I often use "y'all" even in more standard speech because it just... works.


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