i + a = io??

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

NiallBeag wrote:

patrickjwalsh wrote:

In any case, all of these follow the pronunciation now. liam is a diphthong, /lʹiəm/. liom is not, /lʹəm/.

So does that mean that -íonn is the long i followed by broad n? Has an entire syllable been lost?

Lughaidh wrote:

It's simply an orthographic convention, a simplification they made in the spelling created in the 1950s.

-aíodh was -aigheadh
-íodh was -igheadh

For most tenses, there was only one conjugation before that orthographic reform:

ceannaíodh (2nd conj.) was ceannaigheadh (-eadh ending, the root being ceannaigh)
briseadh (1st conj.) was already "briseadh" (-eadh ending)

So what was the prereform endings for the so-called 2nd conjugation verbs that end in -ail/-ain/-ais? The Collins book would have us write ceanglaíonn etc, but that long í isn't standing in for -igh here....

Jay Bee wrote:

It's just where orthography and pronunciation meet, if you follow me. Some changes occur in speech and the writing reflects this. The changes you see exist because there is a systematic pattern. It's not VERY important the written (and often silent) changes

It is HUGELY important to me, personally.

My philosophy is that the underlying patterns of a language, however subtle, are directly relevant to all learners. If a pattern exists, it's part of the language; if you don't learn the pattern, you can't learn the language properly. Orthographic conventions that obscure patterns do a disservice to learners, because someone who learns aurally as an infant will learn those patterns, but someone who learns from a book that doesn't make them clear won't.

I am currently working on producing some language learning software that starts from this philosophy.

It's all based on rules, and will be customisable to dialects... which means it'll be possible to stick two fingers up at the caighdeán and learn all the unwritten diphthongs etc from a properly literate spelling system! :twisted:

I meant that I go based on the pronunciation, so the glide vowels comes natural. As regards the orthography I agree with Murcadh et al in that the Caighdeán has messed up clear corrospondances

NiallBeag · **Joined:** Wed 19 Dec 2012 3:58 pm **Posts:** 488

patrickjwalsh wrote:

-íonn is long i followed by broad n, with a neutral vowel glide inbetween.

Ceanglaíonn? Well, traditionally this verb is ceanglann (ceangalann with a helping vowel). But if you have to have it in the 2nd conjugation, then ceanglaíonn would be ceangluigheann or ceanglaigheann in the older spelling but as you spotted, with ceangail in the imperative, it is better in the 1st conjugation.

You can't always tell the conjugation pattern from the imperative. Eg foghlaim is foghlaim in the imperative, but not foghlamann sé (well, that may have existed once), but rather foghlamaíonn sé (foghlamuigheann sé). So it is always a question of usage. The syncopating verbs straddle the 1st and 2nd conjugations.

So... the long í sound is historically broad-CH->"igh"... is it still pronounced with a y-glide in native speech?

And the verbs without a broad CH in the base form... this is a change due to native usage, right? Not some silly "simplification" by the teaching community...?

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

I'm not 100% with you but I do know that many words replaced the slender ch with í while SG keeps it (ex: bacach -->bacaí). The verbal ending í would also come from -ig, and so gets done as /ig'/ or /i:/.

Maybe in Donegal there is a /i:j/ ending. Lughaidh would know for sure. I recall reading about this but it's hardly a big issue as 'ídh/ígh and í are almost the same

patrickjwalsh · **Joined:** Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:31 am **Posts:** 329

NiallBeag wrote:

So... the long í sound is historically broad-CH->"igh"... is it still pronounced with a y-glide in native speech?

And the verbs without a broad CH in the base form... this is a change due to native usage, right? Not some silly "simplification" by the teaching community...?

I don't know about Deongal, but igh -is í. The glide vowel comes with the transition from í to nn - which is then like í(@)n. If you listen to Carmanach pronounce teangeolaíocht on forvo - you can hear the glide before the cht.

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

The glides are automatic and come about as one moves from broad to slender, so why would they be an issue?

NiallBeag · **Joined:** Wed 19 Dec 2012 3:58 pm **Posts:** 488

OK, I'm clearly just letting my SG distract me here then -- slender gh is /j/, so taigh (=teach, house) ends with a diphthong, even though there's no following consonant to trigger a "switch" to broad. Same for gh followed by slender syllable, eg cridhe (=croi, heart) --/'krijə/.

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