Hi there,

It's been a while since I've been here, and I decided it was time I tried to get learning this language, so I've been thumbing through Collins Easy Learning Irish Grammar and trying to distill their excessively repetitive descriptions into minimal patterns.

(For instance, in every single tense, they describe individually how to determine the verb root, even though the roots in all tenses except the past appear to be exactly the same.)

One thing I've noticed is that a seems to alternate with io in a lot of places.

For example, most prepositional pronouns (1st singular) end -am, but where the ending's after an i, it's -om: díom, liom, tríom.

Then there's the present habitual endings, with -ann/-eann in the first conjugation, and -aíonn/-íonn in the second.
And the habitual past on Daltai.com (Collins doesn't mention habitual past at all) has -adh/-eadh in the first conjugation but -aíodh/-íodh in the second.

Is there some kind of rule that defines when and how an i makes an a become an o?
(I know it doesn't always happen, or names like mine wouldn't exist!)

Thanks in advance.

_________________
A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

Well, there is no alternation with o in the verbs.

glanaim vs.
cuarduighim

glanann vs.
cuarduigheann


It is just the government has chosen to make -uigheann into -aíonn. But fundamentally the spelling was regular.

do ghlanadh sé vs.
do chuarduigheadh sé

In any case, all of these follow the pronunciation now. liam is a diphthong, /lʹiəm/. liom is not, /lʹəm/.

It's simply an orthographic convention, a simplification they made in the spelling created in the 1950s.

-aíodh was -aigheadh
-íodh was -igheadh

For most tenses, there was only one conjugation before that orthographic reform:

ceannaíodh (2nd conj.) was ceannaigheadh (-eadh ending, the root being ceannaigh)
briseadh (1st conj.) was already "briseadh" (-eadh ending)

by simplifying the spelling (less letters) they have complexified grammar...

In pre-reform spelling, the only difference between the 1st and the 2nd conjugations, was in the future and conditional
1st conjugation: -faidh / -fidh endings
2nd conjugation: -eóchaidh/ -óchaidh endings. (these endings have been shortened to -eoidh/-óidh in standard Irish, although Donegal Irish has kept the genuine endings -eóchaidh/ -óchaidh)

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

It's just where orthography and pronunciation meet, if you follow me. Some changes occur in speech and the writing reflects this. The changes you see exist because there is a systematic pattern. It's not VERY important the written (and often silent) changes

_________________
__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

So does that mean that -íonn is the long i followed by broad n? Has an entire syllable been lost?


So what was the prereform endings for the so-called 2nd conjugation verbs that end in -ail/-ain/-ais? The Collins book would have us write ceanglaíonn etc, but that long í isn't standing in for -igh here....
It is HUGELY important to me, personally.

My philosophy is that the underlying patterns of a language, however subtle, are directly relevant to all learners. If a pattern exists, it's part of the language; if you don't learn the pattern, you can't learn the language properly. Orthographic conventions that obscure patterns do a disservice to learners, because someone who learns aurally as an infant will learn those patterns, but someone who learns from a book that doesn't make them clear won't.

I am currently working on producing some language learning software that starts from this philosophy.

It's all based on rules, and will be customisable to dialects... which means it'll be possible to stick two fingers up at the caighdeán and learn all the unwritten diphthongs etc from a properly literate spelling system!

_________________
A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

-íonn is long i followed by broad n, with a neutral vowel glide inbetween.

Ceanglaíonn? Well, traditionally this verb is ceanglann (ceangalann with a helping vowel). But if you have to have it in the 2nd conjugation, then ceanglaíonn would be ceangluigheann or ceanglaigheann in the older spelling but as you spotted, with ceangail in the imperative, it is better in the 1st conjugation.

You can't always tell the conjugation pattern from the imperative. Eg foghlaim is foghlaim in the imperative, but not foghlamann sé (well, that may have existed once), but rather foghlamaíonn sé (foghlamuigheann sé). So it is always a question of usage. The syncopating verbs straddle the 1st and 2nd conjugations.

This is precisely what the so-called spelling "simplification" has resulted in. The number of patterns and irregularities in the written language have greatly increased, making the learner's task that much more difficult.

The 2nd conjugation verbs are a perfect example.
In the traditional orthography, as patrickjwalsh and Lughaidh have pointed out, the root takes the regular verbal suffixes. Only the conditional and future differs from the 1st conjugation pattern, e.g.:
glanaim---------------cuarduighim
glanann---------------cuarduigheann
ghlanas---------------chuarduigheas
ghlanainn-------------chuarduighinn
glantar----------------cuarduightear
glanta-----------------cuarduighthe
etc.

The future and conditional are formed by replacing the vowel(s) in the second syllable (-ui-) with ó. The gh usually becomes ch.:
cuardóchaidh
chuardóchadh

(The future and conditional of 2nd conj. verbs ending in -il, -in, -ir, & -is were once formed in the same way, e.g. taistil > taisteólaidh.)

The above in caighdeán orthography. The clear boundary betwen root and suffix is obscured:
cuardaím
cuardaíonn
chuardaíos
chuardaínn
cuardaítear
cuardaithe
cuardóidh
chuardódh

A similar mess is made of many 1st conj. verbs, e.g.:
nighim-----------------ním
nigheann--------------níonn
nigheas----------------níos
nighinn----------------nínn
nightear---------------nítear
nighte------------------nite
nighe (vn)-------------ní

also the likes of:
snámhtha--------------snáfa
ithte--------------------ite
naomhthar naofar
etc.

Some "simplification"!

_________________
(SL)(GM)

P.S.
In the traditional orthography the verbal noun of most 2nd conj. verbs is formed by adding the common suffix -adh. The final consonant of the root is broadened, as happens in some 1st conj. verbs:

buail > bualadh------------breathnuigh > breathnughadh (C.O. breathnú)

_________________
(SL)(GM)

No personal preference, but that's the way Collins described it. Can I take it you disapprove...?

So it looks like this is going to be harder than I expected. Is there a good source I should be trying to get hold of for Irish pre-Caighdeán Anglophone? Maybe an out-of-print book or somebody's website?

_________________
A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.

Dinneen's dictionary and Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon?