Does anyone know how long the Scots have used "A' Chuimrigh" for Wales?
I imagine they used something based on "Breatainn" at some stage.

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(SL)(GM)

I guess it's quite new too... Have to know how the Welsh name their country to create the name "Cuimrigh", and actually I don't think the Gaels have always known that!
Nowadays "A' Bhreatainn Bheag" is the name of Brittany, and Breatnais is the name of Breton, but as you may know, in Irish, "An Bhreatain Bheag" is Wales, "Breatnais" is Welsh, while Brittany is an Bhriotáin and Breton is Briotáinis.
The Manx names are more or less the same ones as in Irish (no "Cymru"-like names).

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Wasn't "An Bhreatain Bheag" originally used to refer to Brittany in Irish too?
"An Bhriotáin" is clearly based on the French "Bretagne". I think it would have been better to use "Breizh" - "An Bhréis" ("Bréiseach", "Bréisis"), perhaps.

The modern meaning of the English word "British" likely altered the meaning of "Breatannach" in modern Scottish Gaelic necessitating the creation of a new term to refer to the Welsh.
By the way, what's "Breton" in S.G.? "Breatainn-Bheagach" ??

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(SL)(GM)

but what was the name of Wales then? I guess the Irish have known Wales for a longer time than Brittany



for pity's sake... if there's some native word there's no need to borrow the name the people of the other country give to it, and even less so if you change completely the pronunciation...
Breizh is pronounced bʁɛjs by most Finistère and Côtes dˈArmor speakers, and bʁeχ by most Morbihannais (many say bʁətaɲ too, although the name Breizh-Izel (Breton-speaking Brittany) is known everywhere thanks to canticles), nothing that sounds like an Bhréis.
If you do that, why wouldn't you say "da Ghiúnaidhtid Cingdam" and "Easpainneá" and "Dóightsleand" and "Sfeairghe" and "Eileás" etc...



Breatnach. The adjective "Welsh" is Cuimreach. And British is Breatannach... (see faclair.com)

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Possibly simply "An Bhreatain" - the distinction between Wales and the island of Britain as a whole coming later.
I can't recall where I read that "An Bhreatain Bheag" once referred to Brittany. I mentioned it as I'm unsure if it's true.


"An Bhriotáin" has all the appearance of a modern (20th c.) coining to me. My point was why base it on French and not Breton?
The S.G. name for Wales was based on the Welsh language form, not the English one - seems a sensible approach to me.

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(SL)(GM)

I know less than Lughaidh does about the topic, but one thought is that, since prior to Gaelic spreading through Scotland, the people were Brythonic speakers, or at least the people in the southwest of Scotland were (Pictish may also have been Brythonic tongue, of course), so some early form of Cuimrigh might already have been in use for Wales, Cumbria, and (pre-Gaelic) southwestern Scotland, and may have been absorbed into Gaelic as it spread, even if the raiders from Ireland who raided further south didn't use it.

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

But "a' Chuimrigh" looks closer to "Cymru" than to "Cambria" - if this Latin name had been borrowed long ago by Gaelic, it would have become something like "Caimre"



because more Irish people speak French than Breton, and more Breton people speak English (at least some English) than Breton. And "an Bhriotáin" is understandable or regocognizable to much more people than "Breidheas" or "Braech" or whatever Irish version of the Breton name you'd make up
Just as the French names of the Irish towns are all the English names pronounced in the Irish way, and not the Irish names.

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That's an interesting point. I hadn't considered Scotland's proximity to Cumbria (indeed it was part of Scotland for a time) in which a Brythonic language survived into the Middle-ages. Thanks.

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(SL)(GM)

"Brittany" is obviously more familiar to Irish people than "Bretagne" so why not "An Bhriotanaí" if the form most recognizable to the greatest number of Irish people should be the basis of the Irish-language name.
Similarly why not "A' Bheuls" instead of "A' Cuimrigh" in S.G.?
Ultimately "An Bhriotáin" is well established now so it doesn't matter. It was just a thought.

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(SL)(GM)

yeah, that would be good too.



Yeah, if there's no other established name among Scottish Gaels... I don't know.



but do most native speakers of Irish know or understand "an Bhriotáin"? do they know where it is and what it is?

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