but one should do one's best...



it depends. Some people won't manage to have the correct accent, and others will manage. So learners should do their best, they shouldn't say "right, I'll never manage to have a proper accent so I'll keep pronouncing badly"...



Leinster teachers should do their best to study Leinster Irish and to speak it as much as possible, and to teach it, and then it might be revived. It's a bit like Manx, if you like.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

A Chiaráin - Fixed above.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Fair enough, it's not so hard for me anyway (but I wanted to emphasise that I choose to speak with my own accent).



I wans't suggesting that you do so consciously, more that you shouldn't have to try to put on a different accent. Your accent is as Irish as theirs.



I think the Irish language revival has far too much pessimism as it is, I don't feel like adding to it. Anyway, all I can to is try and use what Leinster Irish I can come across and mix it into my CO, and fight my own corner when accused of "not trying hard enough" or "not speaking properly".

But what of those who want to sound distinctively Dublin-ish when they speak Irish? Would you expect two people from Dublin to want to use a Gaeltacht accent when speaking to each other ? (which is the primary reason most people in Dublin want to learn Irish - not necessarily so they can speak to Gaeltacht speakers).



Indeed. I completely agree.

Hi, A Chiaráin Fáilte 'dtín fóram!

We have this discussion about once a month at least Everyone gets a bit heated and confrontational- remind you of anything else that happens once a month?

I don't believe Dublin people should have to change their accents when speaking Irish, but I think you are mixing up accents and correct pronunciation. While there are Galltacht people and urban people that pronounce Irish correctly the fact is the vast majority don't. This isn't because they speak Irish with a Galltacht or Dublin accent its because their first language is English and they grew up with people and were taught by people (in the majority of cases) who spoke Irish that was heavily influenced by English pronunciation. For existence if you asked an urban speaker to pronounce the word "buachaill"- in the vast majority of cases they will pronounce the word very similar to the closest English word that sound like the Irish "Bu-Kill". Other words that this happens frequently with have also similar English cognates: tú is often pronounced incorrectly as "too", lae as "lay", ch more similarly to a "k" and as seen in the original point of this thread- the pronunciation of the Irish "r" as an English "r" and the fact most Galltacht speakers tend to pronounce all "r"s in Irish as broad "r" no matter the word so "leabhair" sounds the exact same as "leabhar" srl...

It says on your profile that you live in Barcelona; so I presume so you can speak spanish??? I bet you don't pronounce "Me llamo Ciarán" as "Mé lamo Ciarán"- you say something like "Mé yamo Ciarán" or as South Americans say "Me jamo Ciarán"". Even though you pronounce it correctly I bet you the Spaniards know you're not originally Spanish (that's your accent), if you pronounced it "Mé lamo" with an English "L"; that's a pronunciation error- and that's one of our problems that we have with Urban Irish.

The fact of the matter is bad pronunciation practices (pronouncing Irish like English) are not being corrected because people are brought up with them and they don't know any better and when they meet someone who does pronounce correctly they wrongly assume its because they have a different dialect. That's NOT their fault either, its due to bad teaching practices by teachers who don't know they're making the same mistake- so the cycle goes on and on and on.

Lets look at the discrimination shown to dialects in the Irish education system. Students who speak a dialect and have an affiliation to the language that has been unbroken since the dawn of the Irish language here are not permitted to write in their own dialect. So, lets take the word "Gaeilge". Originally only Galway speakers said Gaeilge, Munster has Gaoluinn (Gaeluinn and different variants) while Ulster has gaeilg. If I were to write Gaoluinn in the leaving Cert my Irish would be considered as wrong. Also, forms that are not in any dialect are used as the exemplary forms for instance "Conas atá tú?"- its roughly based on the Munster variation "Conas 't(h)ánn tú/ Conas 'tháir/ conas taoi?", Conamara "Cén chaoi ina bhfuil tú?". So no true native Irish speaker says "Conas atá tú". Even dialectal forms that are more similar to old Irish are not permitted. It has gotten a bit better recently with the new amendments to the Caighdeán- but the damage has already been done.

If you want to learn a dialect- good luck trying to find the resources, all learning material now are only printed in the caighdeán. What really pisses me of as well is if you want to purchase works written by native dialectal speakers- to see their way of expressing themselves and the language they use- you "CAN'T" because they have all been transcribed into standardised Irish- that makes me sick! Do they not realise that its usually language enthusiasts who purchase these books and not only want to learn about the content of the book but the language in them and they are deprived from doing that.

The awareness of dialectal Irish is so bad is exemplified by a question posed to me the other day, I'm in third year the final year of my degree and I had to explain to someone who asked me why I pronounce "r" harshly and why I pronounced "bhíomar as (bhíomair) and if I was from Conamara because Munster people say "Bhíomar"! I had to explain "bhíomair" is how its pronounced in all the sub-dialects of Munster. He thought he spoke Munster Irish, because he was born and raised in Munster- he doesn't he speaks and writes perfectly good standardised Irish- it really was an epiphany for him.

Before you say, sure its easy to say that when you're raised in a Gaeltacht, I wasn't I'm not from an Irish speaking area, my first language is English and I received most of my schooling under the umbrella of the standard. Except I had my epiphany in second or third year- after listening to a tape of a native Munster speaker and asking why don;t we speak like that. When I discovered it wasn't proper Munster Irish we were learning at all nor was it the language spoken in the Gaedhealtachtaí, but an artificial one composed in an office, I have to say, I felt betrayed and questioned my passion for the language! From that moment on I have been very concerned with the plight of dialectal Irish and I pursued to learn my language in the way it had ought to be spoken- In my opinion.

I had an excellent grasp of the language but my pronunciation was very poor. Something I realised when I went to the Gaeltacht in Ring in 4th year to finish my secondary schooling as I wanted to complete my schooling through Irish has I had always done, but it became unavailable after junior cert because the class size and demand became to small to continue. I didn't realise I had poor pronunciation solely from my fellow students , as their pronunciation was tainted as well, but from the singing class we had once a week and from listening to older speakers in the Gaeltacht. I have worked very hard on my pronunciation and Munster Irish education over the last 6 years, listening very closely to older speakers, lecturers that speak Munster Irish and from the original works of Munster Irish speakers that were printed before 1950 and early 60s as they begin to get standardised after that.

I now speak Déise Irish with variations from the other sub-dialects, but I have a Cork accent and the Cork accent is still very noticeable when I speak Waterford Irish- so for me that proves to me you can retain your accent but pronounce correctly!

PS, if people think they hear correct dialect pronunciation on the listening comprehensions for Leaving Cert" they are grossly misled. These are basically people from Munster, connacht and Ulster speaking in their regional accents but with Caighdeán rules and words.

By the way I love Barcelona we had to go there for a week as part of our geography course to carry out field research. Lovely city, you really get to know a place when you are steered away from the the touristy disguises!

Crossed with half the forum

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

Don't you just hate it when people give short, abrupt answers!

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You know me straight to the point! , after going the scenic country road route, realised you got lost and have to turn around and go down the main road again.

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There certainly is a lot for me to answer there! I may have to just deal some select things here...



People seem to say this often on forums. Accent and pronunciation are both descriptions of phonological phenomena, so it really depends on where you draw the line between the two. I know which phonological features I'm comfortable with say (without making it feel like I'm "putting on a Gaeltacht accent") and which ones I choose to retain from my native accent (to give my Irish a Dublin flavour). Maybe these would be different for other people.



Actually (not trying to brag here), they don't notice that I have a strange accent. They only know I'm a foreigner when I make a grammar error or choose my words in an awkward way (which tends to happen pretty early on the conversation). But I see your point. I suppose it's a matter of how much change people feel comfortable with.



I wasn't aware of this, I have to say. Certainly I don't think dialectal Irish should be discriminated against in this manner, but I've (obviously) never seen this to be the case. Most of my teachers were natives, and the discrimination I saw was aimed at "Galltacht" speakers (God I hate that word! Is Gael mise, ní Gall).



This is where I disagree. What's wrong with being taught "Conas atá tú?"? I'm not from a Gaeltacht, why would I want to say "Conas 't(h)ánn tú/ Conas 'tháir/ conas taoi?", "Cén chaoi ina bhfuil tú?" or "Gaidé mar a tá tú?"? I can see the use in learning to understand them passively (and with the exeption of "Conas 'tháir?" we were taught these), in case someone says it to you, but I'd rather learn something that specifically makes me sound not like I'm from the those places, because I'm not.



And I'm not a true native, so it's only fitting that I say it that way. Or better yet, find out how MY great, great, great, great, great grandparents would have said it in Leinster Irish, and use that.



Again, I didn't know about that. That's not on, I agree with you there.



Awareness is definitely something to promote, but I'm more annoyed by the lack of awareness or interest shown to the Leinster dialect. There precious little scholarship on the subject, and I was astonished to find out that there may have been Irish being spoken just a few miles from where I grew up in south Dublin as recently as the 1930's. Why has this not gotten more attention? Why hasn't anyone tried to see what can be salvaged? Because the Gaeltacht-focused people who run the revival don't care about my heritage, they just want me to adopt theirs. That's the way I see it.

Yes to an extent, but accent doesn't = pronunciation, they differ, for instance the pronunciation of the Irish "r" or the slender "r" is something Irish learners have trouble with because it doesn't exist in English so they're not used to it! But native Irish speakers, who have retained the traditional Irish of their areas are able to distinguish between the different "r"s, no matter how different their accents are, i.e a person from Ulster and Munster will be able to pronounce the "r" correctly even though their accents are so diverse. Did you ever think that the features you are uncomfortable with saying is more of a reflection on the influence of English rather than your Dublin accent? (your basing your Dublin accent which you speak through English as a means of measuring what would your dialect of Irish be capable of-that doesn't work, although it might contain the same rhythm it wont contain the proper sounds associated with Irish). That's like me learning Spanish and only using the sounds and features that I know from English and ignoring everything else because I don't want to sound to like a spanish person! What I am getting from your response is you would impoverish your own Irish rather than pronouncing things properly because you think its to Gaeltachtish because it doesn't suite your accent, which is in English????- Not saying you can't pronounce properly, Maybe this isn't what you mean though!

You might say big deal what's the difference between distinguishing between slender and broad consonants, well slender consonants are often used amoug words of the 1st declension to pluralise or in the tuiseal ginideach uatha, how can you differentiate when they don't sound the same.



fair play



I agree I'm not a fan of the term "Galltacht" either. I kinda guessed that when I noticed that your entry, where you originally introduced yourself, you used the treatment of the réamhfhocal as an Ulster speaker would- that is using the tabharthach system of séimhiúing nearly everything as opposed to the cuspóireach (urúing) method that is used in Munster and Connacht, this occured when the tuiseal cuspóireach died out and the réamhfhocal that where previously assigned to Cuspóireach, tabharthach or both, in old Irish, fell in on each other and created a mess.



"Conas atá tú" is a made up term that some fella in an office devised during the 1950s-, where he took a munster variant and applied standardised grammar, its not real Irish, it has no historical heritage, or had no native speakers before 1950- Is that a real language to you?, If so why?! And anyway if you say "conas atá tú", it makes you like the vast majority of students stretching from Ulster to Munster so it makes you sound like you're from no area at all



, I'd say you have a better chance in finding out that they spoke Swahili rather than they said "Conas atá tú"! The Folklore commission recorded native Leinster speakers in the 30s. There was a clip on you tube but I can't find it now of a man from Meath (before Conamara people arrived) telling a story about when he was younger and he was "ar bhuachailleacht"- minding cows and instead he went fishing and his dad was quite angry when he got home! Breandán or anyone else, if this rings a bell see can ye find it because I can't at all. The man's Irish was vastly similar to that of the present Gaeltachts with its deep gutteral sounds and pronunciation. Dublin Irish was probably similar in the fact that all sub-dialects of modern Irish have things in common with each other. For instance Ring Irish pronounces certain words like "bain" more similar to a Connacht speaker than the other sub-dialects of Munster, Ring speakers also say "Thá" instead of "Tá" the only other dialect that does that is the very tip of Corca Dhuibhne (to an extant) and Scottish Gaelic (very strongly). Even though Scottish Gaelic pronunciation is more similar to Ulster Irish, it has many features of grammar only found in Munster Irish, for instance using the tabharthach uatha "toigh"/ ti(o)gh (Munster) for the nominative "teach" and Scottish Gaelic uses iasgach, iasgach/Iascach in Munster. Dublin city would have had very little Irish from the time of the Pale on-wards, but its not stupid to say that the areas of Leinster closer to Munster would speak similarly to Munster speakers, Ulster areas..., connacht areas etc... and then slowly coming together in the middle with some of its own vocabulary and distinguishable features, similar to the Ring pronunciation of "i".



WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!: Gaeltacht-focused people than run the revival! are you serious-who shoveled ya that shit????, sorry for the outburst but , believe me Gaeltacht people haven't run the revival since the time of Peadar Ó Laoghaire (these Gaeltacht people recorded the last Monolingual Irish speakers from everywhere including Manx for the Béaloideas Éireann), the Gaeltachts and more specifically their dialects have been ignored, why do you think nothing can be published in dialectal Irish anymore, it has to be standardised because they think people from Dublin or Conamara are to stupid to understand Munster Irish- reformed spelling grand, but not words being altered and sentences being restructured. Its people that promote the standard/ caighdeán run the revival- they have no interest in Leinster Irish. I love dialects, to me dialects are Irish not the Caighdeán! I would much rather see you learning a revived Leinster Irish than learning Conamara Irish or my own Munster Irish but I'd especially prefer it over the Caighdeán. Its the Caighdeán that wants everyone to write the same (although, the Caighdeán has no guidelines for pronunciation, bad pronunciation even bad Irish and the caighdeán, now, nearly go hand in hand!) The polar opposite is occurring than what you think!

We don't want you to adopt our dialects, because that's exactly what's being asked of every dialect speaker by the State- for them to forego their dialect and concentrate on a made up one- at least for school work etc...! Leinster Irish is dead, but the other dialects are quickly dying off as well, yet very little is being done by the State. We don't want our dialects to die, that's why we must fight for their cause at every opportunity, I don't want to look back in 20 years from now with the same sorrowful feeling you have in your heart about the death of Leinster Irish and the regret and shame that nothing was done to save it.

There's an article in "Stair na Teanga" edited by Kim McKone on Leinster Irish, I haven't read it but its one of the core texts to any Irish person who has a passion for Irish- i'm saving up so I can buy it!

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The Dublin form, as found in 16/17th century manuscripts, was:
Canas 'tá tú?

Dublin also used the genitive of twenty when counting from 21-30 like Munster Irish:

Trí ghadhar fichead = Twenty three dogs.

Counting was vigesimal, in twenties:
Trí fichid = sixty

The language was called Gaeilig with genitive Gaeilge.

Chun was pronounced 'un.

Cá was pronounced Gá:
Gá bhfuil mo hata = Where is my hat?

Cathain was Gathain.

The main three tenses used analytic forms in the singular persons mostly, synthetic otherwise (chuadar = they went), the other tenses and moods used mostly synthetic forms.

For polite speech the past subjunctive seems to have been used:
An ólthá tae? = Would you drink tea.

chuig an was not used, rather gus an.
Chuaigh sé gus an mbaile = He went to the town.

The basic form of de had fallen together with do.

The preposition as was pronounced a and did not lenite.
Is a hÁtha Cliath dom = I am from Dublin.

faoi was pronounced fá.

trí was tré, tríd an was trésan.

ag was pronounced aige.

The relative form of the verb seems to have been formed like in Conamara in the North of Dublin:
An fear a chualanns na ba = The man who hears the cow.

Lá arna mharach = The next day

forgla = an chuid is mó de

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal