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PostPosted: Fri 07 Sep 2012 10:19 pm 
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Just to add - although they are young, our children are fully aware that we were both brought up through English and that we do not know everything about Irish. They learned, at a particularly young age, what a dictionary was as we regularly had to refer to one! We encourage them to teach us a new word if they hear something new somewhere - our second child has just started school. She still believes that her teacher can only speak Irish and doesn't understand English. :winkgrin:

And Lughaidh, you will approve - her teacher is from Gaoth Dobhair! 8-)

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 12:22 am 
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When I have children I want to speak Irish and Breton to them (maybe Breton on even dates and Irish on odd dates... :) ). My Irish is far from perfect too, especially on vocabulary since I don't know the (Gaoth Dobhair) Irish names of all the things you need to know to talk to a child. I hope I'll find a friend from Gaoth Dobhair before I have children so that he/she can help me with local vocabulary :mrgreen:
I don't feel confident but I know there are many people who talk Irish to their children and who aren't as fluent as me (I'm not talking about you, I don't know how fluent you are, nor about anybody in particular) so why wouldn't I do it too...
Actually since I don't live in Ireland I don't know if it would be of any use to my children but there's at least two advantages: speaking several languages is good for the brain, and anyway I love speaking Irish so I'll have the opportunity to do it :)

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 1:55 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
there is more Irish being written now than there ever was and most of these writers have the best intentions for the language but some are doing an awful lot of damage as well.
I think if someone who is not a native speaker is writing something for publication in Irish, a native speaker should be proof reading to ensure 'natural' Irish is used. It is important to replace things like 'd'oscail a súile níos mó' with something such as 'leath na suile uirthi'. I would say precisely the same for anyone writing in any language. :computer:


Unfortunately what is happening is the opposite way around, people in offices with learned standard Irish are standardising works by native speakers! :( . In saying that not all native Irish speakers have perfect Irish themselves.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 2:20 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
regularly people claim to have NO IRISH when in fact they have some or quite a lot. They lack confidence and so don't or won't use what they have and so begin to believe they have none at all!


That is very true, whenever I give a grind I always ask the students how do you feel when they are speaking in Irish and the answer is always the same:

They feel embarrassed, self-conscious and as though they are being judged by everyone around them on the mistakes they are making. I always assure them that making mistakes is part and parcel of language use. Teachers, lecturers and even native speakers make mistakes, even in English if you record yourself throughout the day you'd be surprised on the amount of English mistakes you make.

After that re-assurance, I find, they open up completely and they find out that they have a lot more Irish than they realised. They also learn that Irish is a viable mode of communication and not just a school subject and they have a laugh with it.

I believe we have examined Irish to death here to the point where no one will speak it out of fear of someone jumping down their throat because the have made an error. It is of course important to correct, but there is correction and then there's jumping down someone's throat!

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 2:23 am 
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Breandán wrote:

@Cian - I think dearg-, fíor-, síor-, belong to a different class of (mostly emphatic) prefixes, like an- and ró- that do still get used regularly.


Ok ;) :good:

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 2:45 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
There's another problem: people who've been raised up through Irish by parents who don't master the language. Technically they are native speakers, but it doesn't mean they speak properly, if they speak more or less like their parents...
There can be an issue there (as there can be with English, by the way). I am one of those parents - as is my husband. We wouldn't dream of ever calling ourselves native Irish speakers - we are VERY far from that!!!, but yet we never speak to our children in English.

I recently met someone whose parents had done the same as we are doing. He is now the parent to a young child himself. His view was interesting and quite inspiring. His view is that his parents did 90% of the job that was needed (gave him Irish as his first language, but had limitations as they were not native speakers) and he views his role as needing to sort out the final 10% so that he hands an 'improved' version on to his son.

If enough people here did that, the future is not as bad as it sometimes seems. We know we cannot do what a native speaker can do, but we can do this or we can lament the fact that our children will not be fluent Irish speakers. I will never regret the decision we have made, but realise that it is not perfect. I just wish ordinary people here, outside of the Gaeltacht, would realise that there is a lot that they CAN do, even if they can't do everything.

I refuse to be one of the people who will not use the language at all until my Irish is perfect, although I am not at all confident around native speakers (I'm afraid of meeting Bríd some day!) It will be too late for my children then and they deserve better than that. My wishing that things are different is no good to them.


Fair play to you Saoirse. Your commitment is admirable. :clap:
Hopefully we will met soon. I don't bite. :D

Who know what the future of Irish is. Will it be traditional native speakers or learnt Irish that is passed to the next generations. I think there is room for both. Given enough effort learning Irish with a blas is possible.
Personally I think the most important thing is for people to choose a dialect to learn. Hopefully with some immersion with native speakers of that dialect. Stay away from the artificial Standard Irish.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 3:37 am 
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Saoirse wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
There's another problem: people who've been raised up through Irish by parents who don't master the language. Technically they are native speakers, but it doesn't mean they speak properly, if they speak more or less like their parents...
There can be an issue there (as there can be with English, by the way). I am one of those parents - as is my husband. We wouldn't dream of ever calling ourselves native Irish speakers - we are VERY far from that!!!, but yet we never speak to our children in English.

I recently met someone whose parents had done the same as we are doing. He is now the parent to a young child himself. His view was interesting and quite inspiring. His view is that his parents did 90% of the job that was needed (gave him Irish as his first language, but had limitations as they were not native speakers) and he views his role as needing to sort out the final 10% so that he hands an 'improved' version on to his son.

If enough people here did that, the future is not as bad as it sometimes seems. We know we cannot do what a native speaker can do, but we can do this or we can lament the fact that our children will not be fluent Irish speakers. I will never regret the decision we have made, but realise that it is not perfect. I just wish ordinary people here, outside of the Gaeltacht, would realise that there is a lot that they CAN do, even if they can't do everything.

I refuse to be one of the people who will not use the language at all until my Irish is perfect, although I am not at all confident around native speakers (I'm afraid of meeting Bríd some day!) It will be too late for my children then and they deserve better than that. My wishing that things are different is no good to them.


I agree with you entirely I think its truly commendable what you are doing and if Irish is to grow and survive this is the only way forward. I think that man has got it completely right. I see it like a sieve with each generation refining their language skills, taking inspiration from Gaeltacht Irish, rather than the Caighdeán (that would be the ideal outcome). I'm sure Bríd is very nice and doesn't bite ;) :LOL: I get what your saying though I feel self-conscious myself around native speakers. The best complement or reassurance I get is when I am in an Irish oral examination and the examiner on the second or third question asks me if I am a native speaker and if I speak Irish at home, that's one of the best feelings in the World and reassures you that your hard work is paying dividends .

Lughaidh wrote:
When I have children I want to speak Irish and Breton to them (maybe Breton on even dates and Irish on odd dates... :) ). My Irish is far from perfect too, especially on vocabulary since I don't know the (Gaoth Dobhair) Irish names of all the things you need to know to talk to a child. I hope I'll find a friend from Gaoth Dobhair before I have children so that he/she can help me with local vocabulary :mrgreen:
I don't feel confident but I know there are many people who talk Irish to their children and who aren't as fluent as me (I'm not talking about you, I don't know how fluent you are, nor about anybody in particular) so why wouldn't I do it too...
Actually since I don't live in Ireland I don't know if it would be of any use to my children but there's at least two advantages: speaking several languages is good for the brain, and anyway I love speaking Irish so I'll have the opportunity to do it :)


Lughaidh I think your remarkable, for a French man (some might argue your more Irish than the Irish themselves ;) ) to have interest in a language that there is no great need for is brilliant and I wish to thank you for having such a passion and interest. I am aware you speak Breton, Irish (written old Irish), English and French and maybe more; that's astonishing, bordering on unbelievable and must have taken quite a lot of effort. Your clearly very intelligent or just mad :LOL:. They say learning languages gets easier with the more languages you speak. Why have you chosen to learn Irish? I think I have read somewhere before that you are a native speaker of Brezhoneg, how come you chose to learn Irish a Q-Celtic language over Cymraeg a P-Celtic language? which would be much closer to Breton? Have ye the same problems as us, as in the French (language) distorting Breton in the same way English distorts Irish?

Do ye have places similar to Gaeltachts? What is the French Government's opinion on Breton? I know France applies a policy of assimilation and wishes for everyone to be assimilated into their version of "French society". Breton was banned is that correct? Its obviously not banned anymore, right?
Can I ask what is that you do? work wise- do you work in a university? and you must be fairly young since you have no children, yet :). Teaching your child Breton and Irish would be great, you'd gave someone to talk Gaoth Dobhair Irish to then ;) . Maybe create your little own Ulster Gaeltacht :LOL: .

PS, I am not "arse lickin" I find it genuinely amazing!

Crossed with Brid

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Last edited by An Cionnfhaolach on Sat 08 Sep 2012 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 3:44 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Breton was band is that correct? Its obviously not band anymore, right?


banned * :bolt:

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 3:46 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Breton was band is that correct? Its obviously not band anymore, right?


banned * :bolt:


:yes: , I'll correct that :LOL: ;)

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 10:41 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:

Nuachtlitir: in Irish it is "litir nuachta". Nuachlitir is the English "newsletter" in disguise

dianchúrsa: should be "cúrsa dian" (why not "maithleabhar" or "dubhghruaig" or "beagmhadadh" then?)

dlítheangeolaithe : should be teangeolaithe dlí

le linn na scoilbhliana : the most ridiculous... "le linn na bliana scoile" isn't Irish enough? scoilbhliana is English in disguise. And all Irish speakers surely say "na bliana scoile", there was no need to invent a new word, especially if it's composed in the wrong order...

etc etc etc

That's becoming ridiculous, really. I wonder where they'll stop with these backwards words. When everything is in the wrong order maybe? "Inniu maith leabhar mé léigh, suimiúil iontach sé bhí" :darklaugh:
If they can't help copying all new words from English, maybe they'd better write in English directly... Distorting Modern Irish that way isn't a good thing, in my opinion...


Haigh,

Níl mé cinnte go n-aontaím leat, a Lughaidh. Is é Éamonn Ó Dónaill stiúrthóir Ghaelchultúir agus is as Ghaoth Dobhair (a bhfuil an-chian agat air!) ó dhúchas é. Tá Gaeilge nadúrtha agus dúchasach aige. Chomh maith le sin, dá gcaithfeá súil ar fhoclóir Uí Dhomhnaill d'fheicfeá go mbíonn a lán samplaí ann d'fhocal dian mar réimír: dianbheart, dianbhreith, diancheart, dianchleachtadh, dianchosc srl. D'fheicfeá go mbainneann úsáid as an fhocal "nuacht" mar réimír igcásanna áirithe fosta, "nuachtbhosca", "nuachtghníomhaireacht". "Scoilcheantar" atá le feiceáil ann comh maith.

Rinne mé cúrsa le Gaelchultúir agus caithfidh mé a rá go gcuirtear béim mhór ar saibhreas na Gaeilge, comh maith le cruinneas na Gaeilge.

In general, sometimes I think you're looking too hard to find fault with modern Irish, even if I understand your concerns. It's just that, like any living language, people have different needs for it. I think an open caighdeán is important for the development of the language in the same way that it has been important for all languages at some stage. Take English, for example. English has been standardised for a long time, but that has never impeded the use of dialect orally or in literature. You only have to look at examples such as the Scottish writer Irvine Welsh or Irish writers like Pat MacCabe, among thousands of others of writers throughout the evil empire who have used dialect to give voice to powerful postcolonial discourse. People who work with the written Irish language on a professional basis need a standard in order to remove ambiguities in written work, academic or otherwise. There is no reason why caighdeánach Irsh cannot be rich and beautiful, and there is no reason why speakers or writers should exclude writing in dialect alongside that. It's a question of balance. I understand that at times it seems to you that the richness of the Irish language is diminishing, and yes, it probably is - but this is because not enough people are using and sharing the language on a daily basis.

Also, there are users of the standard that contribute to such richness, editors of and contributors to, reviews such as Comhar, for example. Things are just not as simple and black and white as you sometimes make them out to be, in my opinion. The language is going through a period of growth unprecedented in the last 150 years. It will shift and change in various directions as it finds a foothold for itself. The more people start to use the language daily in a natural and comfortable way, the more the language will find its natural development again.

Imagine a child who comes from an English speaking family but attends Gaelscoileanna throughout her school life. She will have a certain kind of Irish, probably the kind you scorn. Eventually, she raises her children in Irish, and they also attend Gaelscoileanna. These children will have an even more comfortable level, having also spoken Irish in the home, and perhaps having learned English slightly later, and will probably experiment with the language in exciting new ways. And the process continues, from generation to generation. Eventually, this kind of user of the language becomes a contributer to the richness of Irish, developing it, helping it grow. Sometimes this growth might be ugly to you, but at least it will be natural. New generations in any language often speak in ways that horrify older traditional speakers. Do you see what I'm getting at? I think we need to see the bigger picture. If this kind of growth can exist alongside the hugely important continuation of the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht, I see a future for Irish that is ripe with all kinds of exciting possibilities.

Anyway, I don't think you shouldn't be criticisng Gaelchultúir. I think the fact that you do is very much part of the development of Irish, and people like you are important in that respect. But the story is bigger than that. You're just playing one particular role. There are other roles to be played too in scéal na Gaeilge.

Tá meas an domhain agam ort sa mhéid go n-oibríonn tú ar son na Gaeilge le tuairimí comh paiseanta sin, agus tú gan ceangal dúchasach don tír seo. Is rud iontach spreagúil é. Tá mise i mo chónaí i bPáras agus mé ag athfhoghlaim na Gaeilge le beagnach bliain anuas. Tá mo chéile ag iompar clainne faoi láthair agus b'aoibheann liom an leanbh a thógáil le Ghaeilge. Níl a fhios agam go fóill más rud réadúil é (níl an Ghaeilge ar mo thoil agam ar chor ar bith agus beidh an leanbh ag caint i Spáinnis lena mháthair, Fraincis ar scoil). Níl a fhois agam go fóill má tá muinín agam asam féin chun é a dhéanamh. Feicfidh muid. Deirim liom go mbeidh an seans agam feabhas a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge i rith an ama atá an leanbh ag fás, ag caint leis go laethúil. Leis an fhirinne a rá níl a fhios agam cén rud a dhéanfaidh mé.

Le dea-mhéin,

p


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