Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
Although, the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is a valuable protector of the language
well, to me it's an artificial dialect that tends to replace the genuine dialects ie. the real Irish language... so it's not a protector of the language, but rather a danger... And anyway, according to the Handbook of the C.O., it shouldn't replace the dialects (well, it wasn't meant to do it, according to the authors), although it's what happens, since dialects aren't being taught... and the C.O. is being taught even to native speakers...
I knew you weren't going to be to far behind with a comment
I agree with you in so many ways, I personally dislike the Caighdeán for what it is doing, as you know I'm an avid supporter of Gaeltacht Irish, but I can see in some part that it was necessary. I was trying to be diplomatic. The caighdeán was meant only to be a mode of writing rather than a mode of speech, it doesn't provide guidelines for pronounciation. For instance you don't get penalised for speaking dialectal Irish in the Irish Oral State Examination's test. You do however get penalised for writing in your native dialect, which I believe is wrong. But one of the objectives of the caighdeán was to ensure teachers from Donegal and Dublin could correct and understand people from Munster and vice- verse.
This came about because there wasn't enough authoritative teachers to correct Irish in their individual dialects. How often has there been a debate about a mistake on here?, only to find out its a dialectal variation. Even today I think there is only 2 or 3 teachers that are able to correct history tests that are taken through Irish
As Irish doesn't have a speaking and pronounciation standard; the caighdeán was therefore never meant, at the beginning, to replace the dialects that were there. But as the Gaeltachts are weakening they are slowly turning away from the Irish being spoken as the language of the home and the community and therefore Irish is not being learned through a natural process, instead Gaeltacht children are learning their language in an artificial school setting where their only example to follow is an artificial language. What a shame!
The main problem with the language is not entirely the Caighdeán its the way its being thaught and who its being thought by. Personally I believe a lot of teachers are to put it bluntly "shite!", I know there is a culture of just blaming teachers but believe me I've seen it myself. Don't get me wrong there are also some brilliant teachers, we have one here
. These "bad" teachers are themselves victims of bad teaching practices. Pronounciation in school is awful to put it mildly. Our school system is not designed to fix the problem i.e actually communicating. Lately there has been a "big change" well it looks like there has been a big change from the outside in.
The Irish oral is now worth 40% of the Irish marks. Great you might say to yourself, but when you actually dissect it, there is no major difference or benefit. It is actually just a "dumbing down" of the language in order to fix the bell curve, as the written test has changed dramatically as well as the amount and standard of the literature to be studied. The oral before the "amendments" was 15 min long, where at least 8 mins was spent on speaking the language. Now its still 15 min but the time spent conversing in Irish has actually decreased because during the exam students must read a paragraph or two from a a possible 5 poems they have studied throughout the year. That takes about 2 min, then they must have a "conversation" learned off from a possible 20 picture diagrams. The student and examiner then interact by answering and asking each other 2 questions each based on the pictures- that's at least 5min gone.
This amendment is not fare to the students, who were taught and designed to process large amounts of literature all through the school system i.e primary to secondary and then all of a sudden they find themselves sitting a test that they were not built or taught for. That is not fair on them either. Its also going to turn them off in the end, I believe, a modern day Peig Sayers. For this to work, teachers need to be of a standard that they feel comfortable themselves in conversing through Irish (its no secret that some teachers conduct their class through English
) and the curriculum is going to have to change from the bottom up not just from the top and then expect students to adapt to the leaving Cert test that they have been preparing for all of their school lives!
I personally don't like the Caighdeán, but it is not correct in entirety to blame it for replacing dialects. If the dialect remained the spoken language of the home and community the Caighdeán should not have affected her, and as I said above Gaeltacht children are having to learn Irish in school and therefore they learn school Irish. That said Gaeltacht children are very proud of their own dialect and the differences within their dialect. BUT, they can't be proud of the dialect the ancestors used to have when their parents/ grandparents have failed to pass it on. And that is the truly sad thing!
When I was told in 2nd year (of secondary school), after class from my Irish teacher, that we were not learning or speaking proper Irish I got extremely angry to which I asked her "why the fuck have I spent 11yrs of my life studying shite and why aren't we taught proper Irish, the way they speak in the Gaeltacht and the way it was suppose to be spoken?"- to which she had no reply. I remember feeling so angry, I actually felt betrayed! And ever since then I have questioned everything.
My opinion of the Caighdeán has slightly improved since then, when I learned it wasn't too difficult to switch, the main problem was with pronounciation and to run away from Béarlachas and directly translated English. So, ya, I basically had to re- teach myself again.
I have personified Irish as a person who was in a car crash (the accelerated decline of Irish before and immediately after the famine). Irish had two choices- die or be confined to a wheelchair (Caighdeán or revival). Their is also the emotional trauma that occurs due to a crash like this which can mirror the traumatic effects of language shift. As it is clear from written sources that the Irish loved their language. Irish might never walk or run/ be what it once was. My true fear is it will become just a means of translating English, as Manx has become. Although, miracles do occasionally occur and it is down to people (such as many on this form) to make this miracle happen. Through the speaking of Irish as the language of the home and of the community and I think people like Saoirse should be commended to the high- heaven for bringing their children up with Irish. Hope this analogy doesn't offend, it really wasn't meant to.
We have kinda gotten away from the point of the thread, but a good argument merits a good discussion.
_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)
Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice
I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)
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, 
I have no use for the C.O.; I wish to learn real Irish. I will learn the C.O. whether I wish to or not, simply because it is so ubiquitous. But my time and effort will be spent studying real Irish.
