It is currently Fri 14 Feb 2025 9:07 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun 26 Jan 2025 3:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 25 Feb 2023 1:24 pm
Posts: 60
Hi everyone, on page 62 of Teach Yourself Irish (page 76 of the pdf) there's a section 'Is and tá with adjectives'.

Teach Yourself Irish wrote:
Is and tá with adjectives'
The verb is used only to describe a temporary or accidental condition or position.

So long story short the idea is that you can say things like tá an bosca lán/folamh but you can't say something like tá an bosca mór/beag, as, from what I understand, beag/mór etc. describe a more permanent quality of the object.

So the whole section is fine, but I have some questions if anyone can help:
  • Is this distinction still relevant in the modern language or is it antiquated? Does this pattern hold up throughout all of Munster (and up into Galway, Donegal etc.) or is it a Cork thing?
  • Nowhere does the section outline how to treat adjectives when there's no noun present. So there are examples like "is mór an tigh é", "tigh mór is sea é" and so on (which are totally fine), but if I just want to say "it is big" (referring to a house), how is that possible with the copula? I feel like it isn't in fact possible (or at least I have no idea of a copular construct that exists for this scenario) and that you'd either need to force a generic noun into the sentence and say "is rud/ní mór é" or perhaps say tá sé mór - but maybe the latter isn't allowed? Please advise on this one

Thanks all!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 26 Jan 2025 5:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 148
The copular equivalent of 'Tá an tigh mór' would be 'Is mór an tigh' or 'Is mór é an tigh' i.e. 'The house is big'. (I think the subsubject 'é' is optional.)

You will occasionally come across assertions that 'Tá' (i.e. the substantive verb) is used to describe temporary situations and 'Is' (i.e. the copula) is used to describe permanent situations. And I think there is indeed a tendency for this to be the case. However, I don't think this is an absolute distinction, and I have often come across 'Tá' being used to describe permanent situations. Maybe it's a case that in the distant past, or in the prehistory of the language, there was an absolute distinction between the two but that this distinction got partially eroded over the centuries.

In the case of 'The house is big', you are expressing a permanent situation. Nonetheless, my guess is that both 'Tá an tigh mór' and 'Is mór (é) an tigh' are both correct translations and mean the same thing.

This very question that you pose has been discussed in the past in another thread http://www.irishlanguageforum.com/viewt ... =28&t=6944 but without any definitive conclusion.

--

Also, as far as I understand, 'Tigh mór is ea é' is essentially a re-arrangement of 'Is tigh mór é', with 'tigh mór' being moved to the start of the sentence, and 'ea' then being inserted as a placeholder to mark the original position of 'tigh mór'. Both mean 'It is a big house.' The 'is ea' construct is favoured in Munster, I think. The equivalent sentence using the substantive verb would be 'Tá sé ina thigh mór' -- however I suspect that, in practice, it might be wrong to use the substantive verb in this case (since we are dealing with a permanent situation, rather than a temporary one). Then again, I'm not totally sure that 'Tá sé ina thigh mór' would be wrong, considering that it is (as far as I know) acceptable to say 'Tá an tigh mór'.

'Is mór an tigh é' means 'It is a big house', where the word 'big' is being emphasised.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 26 Jan 2025 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Tá an bosca mór is fine.

I think Dillon is explaining in a very few sentences and not writing a treatise on this. But copulas are for identification or classification. Is bean í: she=a woman. Tá sé breóite doesn't have an identification/classification element to it. Bosca mór is ea é, is mór an bosca é, etc appear to just describe something, but still use the copula, so there is a grey area.

Is mór an trua é - it's a great pity. I don't think tá an trua mór would make sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2025 1:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1834
djwebb2021 wrote:
Tá an bosca mór is fine.


Modern Grammars don't have detailed rules except for the rather simplified one: Use tá with adjectives!
According to them this would be correct.

But the examples given there are strikingly always only adjectives of a more temporary nature (te, tinn, breoite, etc.), never "mór", "beag" or the like.

That is so probably for a good reason: Adjectives of a more permanent quality are rarely used so.
A native speaker would rather never say: "Tá an bosca mór."
At least, I've rarely ever seen such sentences written. (And there should be millions of them.)

Of course, no one says "Is mór é an bosca", either. That is obsolete.
In fact, native speakers don't say "The box is big" at all.
Instead, they prefer "It is a big box": "Is mór an bosca é", "Is bosca mór é", etc.
Adjectives like "mór" are so rather always attributive adjectives ("big box"), they aren't used predicatively.

Some older books* have rules that confirm this in more detail.
I put this here: Prädikative Adjektive mit bí (in German, of course ;)).

*) Unfortunately, I don't remember which, G. Ó Nualláin, C. Ó Cadhlaigh? Níl a fhios agam.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2025 2:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Tá an fóghmhar mór ach tá an lucht oibre suarach.

Bhí an crann árd agus bhí sé láidir, agus do shrois a aoirde suas go dtí an spéir, agus bhí radharc air go h-imeallaibh an domhain ar fad. Bhí a dhuilleabhar fíor áluinn, agus bhí a thoradh go fíor iomarcach, agus ba bhia do'n uile nídh é.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2025 2:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
TYI 1961 says:

But mór “big”, beag “small”, fada “long”, gearr “short”, trom “heavy”, etc. and the names of colours, are better construed with the copula: is mór an tigh é, is tigh mór é, tigh mór is ea é, is trom an chloch í, is cloch throm í, cloch throm is ea í, and so on. The form tá an chloch trom, tá an tigh mór, tá an páipéar bán would be exceptional. (Is) páipéar bán é seo “this is white paper” is the normal form.

Note: this does not say that it is impossible to say tá an tigh mór.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2025 2:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Another example from TYI:
Tá an bord san mór leathan ach tá an ceann íseal níos saoire ná é.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2025 1:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1434
Labhrás didn't reply, but all I meant was to show that there are usages or sentences that contradict the theory - I think the difference between is and tá is slowly breaking down and so more uses with tá can be found with each passing year. I didn't mean to imply Labhrás was wrong in any of his statements as to the theory of this.

I wonder with respect to:

Tá an bord san mór leathan ach tá an ceann íseal níos saoire ná é.

if the fact that there are two clauses here, contrasting with one another, explains the use with tá?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 29 Jan 2025 8:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1834
It is probably no matter of grammar anymore but rather a matter of style –
because of hesitations due to felt discrepancies according to rules which became less important and less central (like tá denoting a temporary state and mór being a permanent quality)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 45 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group