Hi everyone,

I wanted to clarify usage of dh’ in Munster Irish but couldn’t find a huge amount of information on it.
In Teach Yourself Irish I came across this though:



So the above is fine, but to clarify you’d get:

• cathain a dh’fhágais
• cathain a dh’fhágfeá
• cathain a dh’fhágthá

BUT!

• cathain a fhágann tú
• cathain a fhágfair

On top of the above case with the relative particle, I’ve heard native speakers us the dh in infinitive constructs also e.g. caithfead é a dh’fhágaint.

So my questions:

• are the bullets above correct from a grammar perspective?
• are there other cases where the dh is used that I didn’t give above?
• is the “a” particle typically dropped before the dh? I’ve seen this happen where the relative “a” is dropped, but I’m not sure about the case with the infinitive construct

It all depends on the individual speaker. Oftentimes, the relative participle is left out as well as the dh' prefix. E.g. cathain ' fhágfair. I think this form was common in Peadar Ó Laoghaire's Irish. All of the bullets that you have would be correct, but I would say that dh' prefixing is more common than leaving the verb unprefixed but keeping the participle, as the participle would likely become glossed over in native speech without a following consonant phoneme. This prefix is also often used before vowel sounds (that includes a/á, e/é, i/í, o/ó, u/ú as well, not just lenited f) in the past tenses (both habitual and preterite) and conditional, and I believe (but is less commonly found) after masculine á (e.g. táim á dh'ithe).

_________________
I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

Cathain a dh'fhágann tú? and Cathain a dh'fhágfair? are fine too.

There is definitely permissible variation on this point, but it is not the case that you would have cad a dh'fhágais, but cad a fhágfair.

Cathain a dh'fhágfeá> - but the f is broad in this ending: cathain a dh'fhágfá? This is the case with every verb: bheifá (not: bheifeá).

Thanks Séamus & David.


Not trying to nitpick on this, just curious - is the a also called the relative participle? I've come across relative particle alright, but maybe it has a few names.


This is an interesting one! Any idea why it's not used when feminine nouns are being referenced? Or why you reckon it's less commonly used?


I don't entirely follow, do you mean that if a given speaker uses cad a dh'fhágais, then that same speaker would also use cad a dh'fhágfair, as opposed to cad a fhágfair? i.e. they consistently either use dh prefixing in relative clauses for all tenses or they don't at all?



Thanks for this one! Does the f work in the same way for the autonomous form future & conditional endings. i.e. all of these f's are broad?

No, I mean there is no difference between cathain a dh'fhágfair and cathain ' fhágfair - a certain speaker/writer might use both, but it is not the case that they would keep up a regular distinction, using a dh' in some tenses and just a' in others.

Autonomous forms:
Present: always a broad t: glantar, cuirtar.
Future: always a broad f: glanfar, cuirfar.
Conditional: always a slender f: ghlanfí, chuirfí
Past habitual: always a slender t: ghlantí, chuirtí.

Some speakers had some other system, eg. Dónall Bán Ó Céileachair had ghlanfaí, chuirfaí, but the system above is the most common one today - at least in pronunciation. In writing, people would mainly follow the Standard spellings, which use the caol le caol, leathan le leathan rule.

Conditional 2nd psn singular: broad f: ghlanfá, chuirfá.
Past habitual 2nd psn singular: broad t: ghlantá, chuirtá. Or th: ghlanthá, chuirthá.

I have mostly heard it called the relative participle, but particle is also acceptable I think. Also, I have heard participle pronounced both as 'participle' and 'participial'.



I think that it isn't used with feminine nouns because the feminine form is á + h prefix. The reason that á + dh' would be found at all is to bridge the hiatus between the two vowels (i.e. /ɑː/ and whatever the initial vowel of the following verbal noun is), as Irish lacks such features as syllable breaks (/./) an glottal stops (/ʔ/) found in languages such as English and German to break up groups of vowels. This also applies to the idea that the d(h)' prefix wouldn't be followed after á when referring to plural nouns, as the consonant n- gets prefixed to those verbal nouns that start with vowels, and bh to those starting with f-. The reason that dh' is less common after á than in other cases is that the vowel sound /ɑː/ is easier to pronounce when preceding the following vowel of the verbal noun than the other preceding vowels (such as a - the relative participle - pronounced /ə/) as it is less lax and therefor is more extenuated in speech.

Also, to add on to what I said earlier, dh' is often found in the past tense as verbs starting with vowels or f- in the past tense would typically be prefixed with d', but, as the past participle do, which causes lenition to verbs (which is common in Munster) proceeded these verbs, the d' became lenited to dh'. The past participle (do) then may have been omitted, as the prefix already signified past tense.

_________________
I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

*Only* particle ("mír" in Irish)
relative particle = mír choibhneasta

A participle is called "rangabháil" in Irish. It is a mixed form between adjective and verb.
intuigthe, sothuigthe, dothuigthe are typical participles in Irish.
Some call the verbal adjective participle, too. (rangabháil chaite = past participle)

Yes, Labhrás, "relative participle" is just wrong. And the perfective particle, "do" as in "do dheineas", is not a "past participle". Déanta is the past participle = verbal adjective. The past participle is a phrase that really relates to English linguistics, not Irish.

Thanks for the help everyone, it’s all much clearer now

I apologise. I was not aware of the correct terminology, perhaps I just unconsciously read them as the same word in my mind. Thank you all for bringing this to my notice!

_________________
I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar