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 Post subject: Copula in Munster Irish
PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar 2012 12:17 pm 
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I guess that 'is' - the Copula - is one of those hurdles we learners have to master before getting too far ahead in the language. In Scottish Gaelic there are many special rules and idiomatic uses that I had to learn as a boy. Now I am working through Dillon and ó Cróinín - Teach Yourself Irish, which is chiefly the traditional Munster dialect. In the chapter on the copula, the rules are fairly clear once you untangle the exceptions and arrange the examples.
However, under the heading of 'Identity' the rule is given that the pronoun occurs twice unless the subject is the demonstrative. Among the examples we find: Is iad na garsúin iad = They are the boys. But:- Is iad so na garsúin = These are the boys. So far, so good: and this rule is followed through most of the exercises. But then in exercise 21, I came across: These are the Germans. My answer was 'Is iad so na Gearmánaigh'. But the key at the back of the book says: Is iad na Gearmánaigh iad so' where it seems to me that the pronoun is indeed repeated despite a demonstrative subject. Obviously I am wrong, not the book, but I don't see why.
I tried puzzling through Gerald Ó Nolan's 'Studies in Modern Irish' but it wasn't as helpful as it might be.
(a) Is there a good guide to the copula uses in Munster? Perhaps on the Internet?
(b) And what rule did I break in my version of the sentence?

Don't hesitate to point out my ignorance!
Bruce


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar 2012 4:36 pm 
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I'm a bit confused as well tenneral, I must say. To me "Is iad na Gearmánaigh iad so" means something like "The Germans are these (people)".

Maybe somebody else can explain, maybe the rule mentioned isn't a rock solid one.

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar 2012 7:37 pm 
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To me "Is iad na Gearmánaigh iad so" sounds wrong.
I think you have to say "Is iad so na Gearmánaigh".

Just as you say "Is é sin m'athair" and not "Is é m'athair é sin".

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar 2012 9:13 pm 
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The books aren't always right. I have found countless errors in just about every textbook of Irish over the years.

My feeling is that you were right and the book was wrong in this case.

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar 2012 3:26 pm 
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Thank you for the comment Breandán. I believe you may be right as ever. When I first went through 'Spoken World Irish - A Complete Course for Beginners', I found lots of obvious errors and typos but thought that I must have missed some points of grammar or vocabulary along the way. Since then I know better!


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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar 2012 8:16 pm 
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I'm glad you've pointed that out - I have managed to get hold of the same book - apparently when it was published, there were a set of vinyl records that were produced to accompany it. It would be nice to find them or perhaps someone will get round to putting them on the net. There's An Teanga Bheo in the Corca Dhuibhne version by Diarmuid Ó Sé (ISBN 978 1 85791 753 6) though it's a pity there isn't a CD to go that with either. There are recordings of Bab Feiritéar available though.


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