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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jun 2024 5:06 pm 
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Hi everyone.

So I know that the terminal ‘gh’ sound is often dropped in Munster Irish verbs when followed by a pronoun i.e. “d’éirigh sé” = [d’eir’i se:]. And then retained with nouns.

With the same verb, would it be the case that the ‘gh’ would also be dropped in the imperative?
For example, could you ever get “éirigh” (2nd person imperative) = [eir’i].

I’m assuming no, as I don’t think I’ve ever heard it, but what about the case where we have a preposition as part of the verbal phrase e.g. “leave me alone” = “éirigh díom” = [eir’i j’i:m]?

Thanks for the steer!


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jun 2024 5:11 pm 
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beepbopboop wrote:
Hi everyone.

So I know that the terminal ‘gh’ sound is often dropped in Munster Irish verbs when followed by a pronoun i.e. “d’éirigh sé” = [d’eir’i se:]. And then retained with nouns.

With the same verb, would it be the case that the ‘gh’ would also be dropped in the imperative?
For example, could you ever get “éirigh” (2nd person imperative) = [eir’i].

I’m assuming no, as I don’t think I’ve ever heard it, but what about the case where we have a preposition as part of the verbal phrase e.g. “leave me alone” = “éirigh díom” = [eir’i j’i:m]?

Thanks for the steer!

Isn't it: leog dom féin?


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jun 2024 8:17 pm 
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Quote:
Isn't it: leog dom féin?

I think it's probably both, I picked a contrived example off of teanglann: https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/%C3%A9irigh_d%C3%ADom.

But with your example of leog/lig, you've got me thinking of another question regarding the terminal 'gh' sounds.
Namely, how does this work with those first conjugation verbs that end in (a)igh - suigh, léigh, dóigh etc.

For léigh and dóigh I guess the long vowel means that the terminal g sound should work in the same way as outlined in my original post, right?
léigh - 'léas', 'léis', 'léigh sé' = [l'e:s, l'e:s', l'e: s'e:] but 'léigh séan é' = [l'e:g' s'ɑ:n e:]
dóigh - 'dhós', 'dhóis', 'dhóigh sé' = [ɣo:s, ɣos', ɣo: s'e:] but also 'dhóigh séan é' = [ɣo:g' s'ɑ:n e:]
But I'll be honest, in both cases for the 3rd person with a noun, dropping the 'g' sounds better to my ear (dhóigh séan é = [ɣo: s'ɑ:n e:]).
I suppose I'd like to confirm the munstery-ness of dropping the 'g' in this instance, as it may be some Galway-ness slipping into my Irish.

'suigh' I'm slightly more stumped by though since there's no long vowel and it's monosyllabic.
In the past tense, certainly we get these: [hi:s, hi:s', hig s'e:] - But do we also get [hi s'e:] in the 3rd person or dare I say [hi: s'e:]???
I don't think we get either in Munster, and the same thing for something like 'nigh', I would never ever expect the 'g' sound to drop.
But I'm prone to being wrong and would love some confirmation on my ramblings above!

Bonus question, 'I sat down' = 'shuíos síos' = [hi:s s'i:s]. Presumably there's a sandhi here where the latter of the 's' sounds wins out and we get [hi:s'i:s]?
But would that not then end up sounding the exact same as 'shuís síos', so would a native just opt to keep a firm distinction between the 's' sounds or just avoid the welded form altogether in this case e.g. shuigh mé síos?

Brain dump done, thanks for listening.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jun 2024 9:53 pm 
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I'm not sure where you're getting this from.
Éirigh díom is /əirʲigʲ dʲi:m/.

The monosyllabic preterites in -gh all have the -gh pronounced as a slender g. /də lʲe:gʲ ʃe/, /ɣo:gʲ ʃe/, /higʲ ʃe/ etc.

I don't think it matters if "do shuíos síos" sounds like "do shuís síos", as context will tell all. Do shuíos-sa síos, do shuíos síos dom féin.

Most of this is covered in the conjugations on the Cork Irish website.

I don't want to leave "léigh sé", as Peadar Ua Laoghaire stated the "do" particle should not be omitted before unlenitable consonants. So "ghlan sé" is fine, as the lenition shows the invisible presence of "do", but "léigh sé" is not fine. That said, it seems this was his own theory.


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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jun 2024 9:58 pm 
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Pronouns, including mé, tú, sé, sí, é and í are normally pronounced with short vowels. This is clearly shown in Wagner's Linguistic Atlas and Survey of Irish Dialects, Vol 2, point 15, which is Coolea in Muskerry.


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PostPosted: Tue 04 Jun 2024 11:26 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

Irish of west muskerry section 214 (chapter on elision):
“When -igh (verbal ending) is followed by a pronoun subject, the g’ drops out. So also with -idh.”

The section gives “mhínigh sé” as [v’i:n’i s’e:] - and yes, the long vowels in the pronouns are very often shortened as you mentioned.
At any rate, BÓC does not differentiate between first and second conjugation verbs ending in -igh in the above. Hence the source of my question.

I also looked at some entries in your very own Cork Irish dictionary (thanks so much btw! You clearly put a ferocious amount of work into it).
In the entries for léigh and dóigh you call out that the 3rd person past tense with pronoun as being pronounced without the slender g.
And in the entry for suigh you retain the g in the same scenario.


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PostPosted: Tue 04 Jun 2024 11:59 pm 
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I'm not sure where you getting the idea the gh drops out in éirigh díom.

As for my dictionary, those entries will reflect Osborn Bergin's article in Ériu in the early 1900s. He lists some monosyllabic verbs where the g is not retained, and so I entered that in my dictionary a long time ago, but looking at the Letiriú Shímplí transcriptions, it seems that the g could be retained.

When you're dealing with a dialect, it's difficult to be absolutist and claim "every single native speaker does this". It seems to me to make more sense to have the g in.


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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2024 8:01 pm 
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You’re right, and I wouldn’t be absolutist on this at all.
I suppose I was curious if dropping the g in those instances is supported in West Munster.

In terms of where I got the idea from, I think it’s probably listening to a mix of Connacht and Munster speakers on the radio.
Thanks so much for providing clarity!


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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2024 10:09 pm 
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You can find Osborn Bergin's article on Verbs in Ériu on Jstor.


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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jun 2024 6:01 pm 
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I've just checked. In Ua Laoghaire's Don Cíochóté p3 there is "do léigh sé an leabhar". This is "do lég shé an leour" in p3 of the Simplified Spelling edition, Don Cíchóté. The book was in the loft, so I had to find it and check it.


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