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 Post subject: Ní lú
PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2024 11:26 pm 
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I'm still reading Aindrias Ó Céileachair's Quo Vadis, and I understand there is a dispute over whether he was a native speaker or not. If you see this:
Quote:
Níor cheap sé ar dtúis go raibh aon éagóir aige dhá dhéanamh ar Chilo. Ach, ar bhfíor, má thuíll Chilo a bhaochais roimhe sin, ní lú ná mar ’ bhí sé tuíllte aige anois, agus, féach, lascadh do fuair sé in’ inead.

This translates:
Quote:
At the first moment it did not even occur to him that he had done a grievous wrong to Chilo, and had him flogged for the very acts for which he had rewarded him previously.

Ní lú ná mar a should mean "neither, much less", and so the Irish here seems to mean "neither did he deserve it now", but the desired meaning is "no less did he deserve it now", which is in fact the opposite meaning. Is this just a mistake by Ó Céileachair? Maybe the correct translation should be ní lú ná san do bhí sé tuíllte aige anois?


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 Post subject: Re: Ní lú
PostPosted: Thu 22 Feb 2024 12:41 am 
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Well, it does mean quite literally "no less had he deserved it now"
ní lú ná = (it is) not less than

It is not: Níos lú ná ... = [much] less than

I see no difference to ní lú ná san do bhí ...
In fact, mar and san have approx. the same force here, kind of "that what", except mar is the more natural way to say it in Irish.


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 Post subject: Re: Ní lú
PostPosted: Thu 22 Feb 2024 2:43 am 
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Here are some examples from Peadar Ua Laoghaire:
Quote:
Ní bhíonn uaidh ach go dtabharfaí glóire do Dhia ins gach aon nídh. Ní lúgha 'ná mar a bhíonn aon fhormad aige le h-aoinne, mar ní bhíonn aon dúil aige i n-aon rud a chuirfeadh áthas air féin.

This means: neither does he envy anyone.
Quote:
Má abraimíd gur ó neamh é, déarfaidh sé, Má 'seadh, cad 'n-a thaobh nár chreideabhair é? Ach má abraimíd gur ó dhaoinibh, is baoghal dúinn na daoine mar fáidh ab eadh Eóin acu. Agus d'fhreagradar Íosa agus dubhradar, Ní fheadramair. Agus dubhairt seisean leó: Ní lúgha 'ná mar a neósfad-sa dhaoibh-se cad é an t-úghdarás atá agam chun na neithe seo dhéanamh.

This is from the gospels. The meaning is "neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things"
FGB has:
Quote:
Ní lú ná mar a d’iarr sé orm é, much less did he ask me for it.

Ní nú ná mar a translates "neither; much less" followed by verb inversion in English. But the idiom is very non-intuitive to a non-native speaker. It is used in sentences like "I didn't do it before. Neither will I do it now" (=níor dheineas roimis seo é. Ní lú ná mar a dhéanfad anois é). NB: maybe the idiom is to be understood like this -- there is nothing smaller than the possibility that I will do it now.

So ní lú ná mar ’ bhí sé tuíllte aige anois means "neither does he deserve it now", whereas in context the desired meaning is "no less does he deserve it now" (=he deserves it just as much now), which is the opposite meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: Ní lú
PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb 2024 12:17 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Here are some examples from Peadar Ua Laoghaire:
Quote:
Ní bhíonn uaidh ach go dtabharfaí glóire do Dhia ins gach aon nídh. Ní lúgha 'ná mar a bhíonn aon fhormad aige le h-aoinne, mar ní bhíonn aon dúil aige i n-aon rud a chuirfeadh áthas air féin.

This means: neither does he envy anyone.
Quote:
Má abraimíd gur ó neamh é, déarfaidh sé, Má 'seadh, cad 'n-a thaobh nár chreideabhair é? Ach má abraimíd gur ó dhaoinibh, is baoghal dúinn na daoine mar fáidh ab eadh Eóin acu. Agus d'fhreagradar Íosa agus dubhradar, Ní fheadramair. Agus dubhairt seisean leó: Ní lúgha 'ná mar a neósfad-sa dhaoibh-se cad é an t-úghdarás atá agam chun na neithe seo dhéanamh.

This is from the gospels. The meaning is "neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things"
FGB has:
Quote:
Ní lú ná mar a d’iarr sé orm é, much less did he ask me for it.

Ní nú ná mar a translates "neither; much less" followed by verb inversion in English. But the idiom is very non-intuitive to a non-native speaker. It is used in sentences like "I didn't do it before. Neither will I do it now" (=níor dheineas roimis seo é. Ní lú ná mar a dhéanfad anois é). NB: maybe the idiom is to be understood like this -- there is nothing smaller than the possibility that I will do it now.

So ní lú ná mar ’ bhí sé tuíllte aige anois means "neither does he deserve it now", whereas in context the desired meaning is "no less does he deserve it now" (=he deserves it just as much now), which is the opposite meaning.


Oh, interesting.

I could have imagined it:
Combinations of copula and beag/mór are often surprising in their idiomatic meanings, which are often hard to understand and to explain.

Addendum: Funnily enough, it’s in my own grammar:
https://www.braesicke.de/conaisc.htm#und%20auch


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 Post subject: Re: Ní lú
PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb 2024 12:34 pm 
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Posts: 1074
Labhrás wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Here are some examples from Peadar Ua Laoghaire:
Quote:
Ní bhíonn uaidh ach go dtabharfaí glóire do Dhia ins gach aon nídh. Ní lúgha 'ná mar a bhíonn aon fhormad aige le h-aoinne, mar ní bhíonn aon dúil aige i n-aon rud a chuirfeadh áthas air féin.

This means: neither does he envy anyone.
Quote:
Má abraimíd gur ó neamh é, déarfaidh sé, Má 'seadh, cad 'n-a thaobh nár chreideabhair é? Ach má abraimíd gur ó dhaoinibh, is baoghal dúinn na daoine mar fáidh ab eadh Eóin acu. Agus d'fhreagradar Íosa agus dubhradar, Ní fheadramair. Agus dubhairt seisean leó: Ní lúgha 'ná mar a neósfad-sa dhaoibh-se cad é an t-úghdarás atá agam chun na neithe seo dhéanamh.

This is from the gospels. The meaning is "neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things"
FGB has:
Quote:
Ní lú ná mar a d’iarr sé orm é, much less did he ask me for it.

Ní nú ná mar a translates "neither; much less" followed by verb inversion in English. But the idiom is very non-intuitive to a non-native speaker. It is used in sentences like "I didn't do it before. Neither will I do it now" (=níor dheineas roimis seo é. Ní lú ná mar a dhéanfad anois é). NB: maybe the idiom is to be understood like this -- there is nothing smaller than the possibility that I will do it now.

So ní lú ná mar ’ bhí sé tuíllte aige anois means "neither does he deserve it now", whereas in context the desired meaning is "no less does he deserve it now" (=he deserves it just as much now), which is the opposite meaning.


Oh, interesting.

I could have imagined it:
Combinations of copula and beag/mór are often surprising in their idiomatic meanings, which are often hard to understand and to explain.


Yes, I've found that too. Cuid ba lú is another thing that can be hard to understand. This is from Séadna:
Quote:
B’fhéidir nuair a chífeadh Sadhbh Cormac ar an aigne sin nár chuid ba lúgha ’ná a fhonn do bhéadh uirthi a rádh ’na h-aigne féin go bhfuil fir le fághail atá níos gráinne ’ná é,

This means:
Quote:
It is possible that when Sadhbh saw Cormac in that frame of mind she might not be totalled disclined [literally, her inclination would not be the smallest amount] to say to herself that there were uglier men than he.

And I think the Irish fondness for negative phrases can also make for non-intuitive idioms....


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 Post subject: Re: Ní lú
PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb 2024 12:37 pm 
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Posts: 1074
Labhrás wrote:
Addendum: Funnily enough, it’s in my own grammar:
https://www.braesicke.de/conaisc.htm#und%20auch

It's not in the English version of your grammar as far as I can tell. Maybe you can complete the translation and then publish it as a book.


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