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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan 2024 11:45 pm 
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In terms of constructions, are both of the below correct and is there a preference in usage by native speakers in how one would regularly construct phrases.

E.g. I would like you to have money.

Ba mhaith liom tú airgead a bheith agat, nó, ba mhaith liom go mbeadh airgead agat?

Ba mhaith liom mo pháistí gaeilge a bheith acu, nó, ba mhaith liom go mbeadh gaeilge ag mo pháistí.

If you could share another few examples, that'd be great too.

:GRMA:


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan 2024 7:40 am 
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Maolra wrote:
In terms of constructions, are both of the below correct and is there a preference in usage by native speakers in how one would regularly construct phrases.

E.g. I would like you to have money.

Ba mhaith liom tú airgead a bheith agat, nó, ba mhaith liom go mbeadh airgead agat?

Ba mhaith liom mo pháistí gaeilge a bheith acu, nó, ba mhaith liom go mbeadh gaeilge ag mo pháistí.

If you could share another few examples, that'd be great too.

:GRMA:


It is the second wording in both cases. In fact, Peadar Ua Laoghaire has "ba mhaith liom go mbeadh an t-airgead san agat-sa" in one of his works.

I think in speech, some disfluency is normal, and you can change the flow of the sentence half-way through like this:

ba mhaith liom mo pháistí a bheith.... nú, bhuel, Gaelainn do bheith acu....

This means you hadn't planned out the sentence in advance, and needed to change it mid-flow, but this is normal in all languages.

Or: ba mhaith liom, mar lem páistí, Gaelainn a bheith acu. The "mar le" (maidir le in many dialects; also i dtaobh+eclipsis) saves the day. Lem páistí is correct - as m and p are labials and that delenites pháistí.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan 2024 11:17 am 
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Had I been translating myself, I think (would like to think) that I'd also have arrived at the construction 'ba mhaith liom go mbeadh airgead agat', however, my confusion came from the below (half way down):

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm

Special form: Logical subject with prepositions

In many Irish clauses, (esp. in idiomatic expressions with prepositions) a logical subject of the statement differs from the grammatical subject of the clause.
e.g.:
Tá airgead agat = You have money (lit. "Is money at-you ")
grammatical subject: airgead (= money),
logical subject "you " in: agat (= at-you )
Tá áthas uirthi = She is happy (lit. "is joy on-her")
grammatical subject: áthas (= joy),
logical subject "she" in: uirthi (= on-her)

Should a such logical subject appear in infinitive constructions, it is additionally shifted without a preposition
e.g.:
Ba mhaith liom tú airgead a bheith agat =I would like, that you have money
(lit.: "would be good with-me you money to be at-you ")
Ba mhaith liom í áthas a bheith uirthi =I would like, that she is happy
(lit.: "would be good with-me she joy to be on-her")


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan 2024 12:11 pm 
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Well, if Labhrás, the author of that site and a member of this forum, says that he has seen that construction, he must have seen it.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan 2024 5:59 pm 
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Depending on the type of main clause, subject of the dependent clause, dialect, and individual preference, there is:

Ba mhaith liom …
1) … go mbeadh airgead agat (that clause)
2) … airgead a bheith agat (normal verbal noun construction)
3) … tú airgead a bheith agat (verbal noun construction with an extra pronoun)

Such verbal noun constructions with an extra pronoun (3) are common in Ulster Irish but not in other dialects.
(I added this in the German version. The English one is outdated.)


Examples from J. Mc Closkey, "Control and A-Chains in Modern Irish":
- B’fhearr léi é scéal mór a bheith aige dí.
- Níor mhaith liom sibh eagla a bheith oraibh.
- Ba mhaith liom sibh na leabharthaí sin a bheith léite agaibh roimh Nollaig.
- Thig leat imeacht ach tú na prátaí a bheith curtha agat sul a n-imíonn tú.
- B’fhearr liom sibh Gaeilge a bheith dhá labhairt agaibh anseo.


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan 2024 9:26 pm 
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Note that sentences like ba mhaith liom tú an rud a thabhairt dom for ‘I’d like you to give the thing to me’ (with pronoun for the subject of the verbal noun) exist outside of Ulster too, and it’s a straightforward generalization from them to ba mhaith liom tú an rud a bheith agat.

Especially when also compared with is féidir liom é a bheith agam for ‘I can have it; it’s possible for me, it being at me’ (AFAIK also common outside of Ulster too).


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan 2024 5:38 am 
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silmeth wrote:
Note that sentences like ba mhaith liom tú an rud a thabhairt dom for ‘I’d like you to give the thing to me’ (with pronoun for the subject of the verbal noun) exist outside of Ulster too, and it’s a straightforward generalization from them to ba mhaith liom tú an rud a bheith agat.

Especially when also compared with is féidir liom é a bheith agam for ‘I can have it; it’s possible for me, it being at me’ (AFAIK also common outside of Ulster too).

We're confronted here with the descriptivist/prescriptivist divide. Descriptivism says that anything native speakers say is grammatically correct if significant numbers say it and it is understood. Presciptivism says that some things are just wrong.

E.g. there are native speakers who say "a bheith", with an infinitival particle that doesn't exist in Irish. An example is: An té ná fuil láidir ní foláir do a bheith glic. I personally regard that as a glaring grammatical mistake.

No sentences like ba mhaith liom tú an rud a thabhart dom, ba mhaith liom tú an rud a bheith agat, is féidir liom é a bheith agam are found in Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Irish. You would have to study who is saying these. Are these the strongest native speakers, the seanchaithe? Or are these the young people in the Gaeltacht, with heavy English accents, who speak English better than Irish? You would have to establish that these phrases were accepted in the Irish of the last monoglots. Otherwise, I would assign them to the "descriptively correct" category (Iike "you was" and "I'm going to have a lay-down" etc in English).


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan 2024 5:47 am 
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I have to say I've been spoilt by Peadar Ua Laoghaire. It's like I've been feasting on steak all my life and now I'm expected to appreciate beefburgers. There are so many things in PUL"s works that are actually contradicted by modern usage. Here is one from his Notes on Irish Words and Usages (p47), a compilation of his comments on grammar made in the The Leader newspaper:
Quote:
On the other hand é is sometimes inserted when it ought not. Is maith an fear é Tadhg, for instance, is not said. The correct form is is maith an fear Tadhg.

You could continue into things like labhair sé, which Canon O'Leary stated was grammatically wrong, as do labhair sé was the only correct form (the do has to be there with a non-lenitable consonant), whereas ghlan sé is OK as the lenition shows the preterite.

I think one day I will try to compile all PUL's corrections of modern Irish into a book.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan 2024 2:36 pm 
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Not sure whether PUL had any *ba mhaith liom tú [rud do dhéanamh] but he definitely used the likes of ba mhaith liom tú [do dhéanamh ruda], eg.:

Séadna, chapter 32 wrote:
ní thaithneann leat mé a thabhairt namhaid uirthi


(and maybe *ba mhaith liom tú [rud do dhéanamh] and I just over-generalized the above, I don’t have any example at hand)

EDIT there are some native examples in the Foclóir corpus at least:
Seán Ó Ruadháin had:
Quote:
agus ní maith liom thú an teach a fhágáil gan sin a chur in iúl duitgi.


Niall Ó Dónaill wrote:
Quote:
Is ionadh liom Fionn mo leithéidse a iarraidh mar bhean


Last edited by silmeth on Mon 22 Jan 2024 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan 2024 2:50 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
Not sure whether PUL had any *ba mhaith liom tú [rud do dhéanamh] but he definitely used the likes of ba mhaith liom tú [do dhéanamh ruda], eg.:

Séadna, chapter 32 wrote:
ní thaithneann leat mé a thabhairt namhaid uirthi


(and maybe *ba mhaith liom tú [rud do dhéanamh] and I just over-generalized the above, I don’t have any example at hand)

Yes, I agree. It's difficult to search for examples as "tú rud" doesn't come up with anything. If you come up with good examples of the point in hand, please post them.


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