Hello,

Hope you're all keeping well,

Does anyone know if the phrase is 'screamh an bhainne é' nó 'scread anbhainne é' for what people in the west use to mean useless (often used in conjunction with 'ní maith do thada é'). I've heard a mix of 'screamh an bhainne' in Aran and 'scread anbhainne' in Connemara, if anyone knows anything more about this phrase it would be very useful,

Warm Regards,

Shane

Well, could it literally mean "the film on the milk"? the top layer that can be skimmed off? Maybe something can be as useless as the scum on the milk?

Maybe “scread mhaidine”? But that’s usually used with a form of “ar” following it. “Damn . . .”

Thank you,

I think you're correct,

I see that there is also a book written by Joe Steve Ó Neachtain called Scread Mhaidne, (which surely is 'scread mhaidine')

I have asked a native of Cill Éinne in Aran born in the 50s, who presumed it was 'scread an bhainne', (milk) but they also stated that it was used as a curse (using 'ar') which leads me to believe that the written version on this phrase at least is 'scread mhaidine', and is most appropriately used as a curse with the preposition 'ar'. (I also guessed that something was amiss when the saying meant scream of the milk)

Not only is this in the online sources but I have found the following also on The Irish Language Forum: Scread mhaidne [chugat / ort]! May you have a morning scream! [by your family when they find you dead].

I found the explanation given here to be of particular interest.

Thank you very much again,

All the best

I rarely scream in the morning myself.

I could understand scread mhaidine as meaning "useless" only in the sense that such a scream would wake somebody up. I tended to understand the curse to mean "may you be woken unpleasantly, as by a scream in the morning". In that sense, I can see how it might transition to meaning "useless" without the preposition directing it at someone. If something were "like a morning scream" it might be interpreted as something which is not merely unhelpful (to someone intending to continue sleeping) but also unpleasant in its unhelpfulness.

But the connection to death does seem an equally, if not more likely interpretation. Taking this more sinister interpretation, I can't see how it would develop the meaning "useless" except by being homonymous with another phrase like screamh ar bhainne, "scum on milk". I can see how both, having negative connotations and sounding alike in quick speech, could easily fall together. Still, I don't know of any idiomatic use of the phrase screamh ar bhainne to mean "useless".

I don't know of any idiomatic use of any phrase mentioned here either. Does your native speaker not know the derivation or literal meaning?

Very good question, and no they don't unfortunately,

Thanks

Look on Foclóir. They give a few idiomatic meanings there:

bad cess to you scread mhaidine ort

confound ...! scread mhaidine ar ...!

fuck you, you've broken it scread mhaidine ort, tá sé briste agat

a pox on all of you! scread mhaidine oraibh ar fad!

I don't think it necessarily matters, actually.

This is an unfortunate limitation of relying solely or even primarily on native speakers as linguistic authorities. They are certainly the best sources of information as regards what terms and phrases are actively used in a language, as well as how these are properly used, and how they should be pronounced. They cannot always be expected to know why a term or phrase is used, however, or how it originated.

This is the case in any language. Even in English there are plenty of phrases like "play it by air", which have widely used variants "play it by ear" or even "play it by year". All native speakers understand the intended semantic meaning of any of these phrases is the same; to respond to a situation as it develops. Native English speakers will naturally struggle to suggest how it developed etymologically, however. Depending on the variant used by any individual speaker, they may suggest it has something to do with playing an instrument without referencing sheet music (by ear/air), or doing things differently one year to another (by year).

It strikes me that the same thing is probably the case here, and that even if one native speaker had an idea what the etymology is, it may have been derived by working backwards from a homonymous variant rather than by knowing the true origin of the phrase. If that is the case, one native speaker may have one explanation of its origin, and another may have a different one altogether, so in a case like this it may not be worthwhile relying on an individual native speaker's knowledge at any rate, unless you're going to poll a large number of them all at once.