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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 1:39 pm 
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Hello! I’m a bit stuck on a matter of grammar, and I’m wondering if anyone can help?

1) I know that (in Standard Irish) third person copular identification sentences require a subpredicate.
Examples: Is é an báicéir é. (He is the baker.)
Is í an báicéir í. (She is the baker.)
Is iad na báicéirí iad. (They are the bakers.)

2) I know (if the third-person pronoun subject is in emphatic form) that only one pronoun is then required, and it goes where the subpredicate would have been (right next to the copula).
Examples: Is eisean an báicéir. (HE is the baker.)
Is ise an báicéir. (SHE is the baker.)
Is iadsan na báicéirí. (THEY are the bakers.)

3) But…what about if a relative clause is involved? Oddly, I could find very few examples of this, and absolutely zero sources (online or in any of my books) that state an outright rule about it…here’s what I mean: Would (for example) a sentence like, “He is the baker who won the prize,” be most correctly formatted like…
a) Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais.
b) Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais é. or…
c) Is é an báicéir é a bhuaigh an duais.

All but one, of the few examples I found, were in format A. One example was in format C. I have a feeling that format A is most common, but is it the most grammatically correct? (or just a common shortening of one of the other two formats that’s the actual complete/correct format?)

Thank you to anyone who can help! :wave:


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 1:59 pm 
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I would interpret (a) as "It's the baker who won the prize", not "He's the baker who won the prize", for which I would use (c). I'll go check the Christian Brothers' Grammar in an hour or so to confirm this, as the copula isn't the strongest aspect of my Irish.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 2:28 pm 
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As far as I know, it would be exactly like you have in your sections 1) and 2), except that you would append the phrase "a bhuaigh an duais" directly after the word "báicéir". In other words, it would be as follows.

1) "Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais é." ("He is the baker who won the prize.")

2) "Is eisean an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais." (“He is the baker who won the prize.”)

===

"Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais." ("It is the baker that one the prize.") This is a sort of re-arrangement of "Bhuaigh an báicéir an duais." ("The baker won the prize.") in order to give more emphasis to "an báicéir".

Your example (c) is not a legitimate sentence, i don't think.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 2:59 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
I would interpret (a) as "It's the baker who won the prize", not "He's the baker who won the prize", for which I would use (c). I'll go check the Christian Brothers' Grammar in an hour or so to confirm this, as the copula isn't the strongest aspect of my Irish.


Go díreach!

(a) is different from (b/c)

(a) is a cleft sentence.
It is just focussing and fronting the subject of the sentence: Bhuaigh an báicéir an duais. = The baker won the prize.
Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais. = It’s the baker who won the prize.

Subject of this cleft sentence is "[an té] a bhuaigh an duais" (an té left out), "é" is a sub-predicate, "an báicéir" is the predicate.

(b)/(c) are real identification sentences. (I’d prefer (c), too.)
Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais é. = He is the baker who won the prize.
Is é an báicéir é a bhuaigh an duais. = He is the baker who won the prize.

Subject is the last "é", first "é" is sub-predicate, "an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais" is predicate.

And you could use:
Is eisean an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais. = He is the baker who won the prize. (he, not I or she)

Caoilte wrote:
Your example (c) is not a legitimate sentence, i don't think.

Oh, it is.


Last edited by Labhrás on Tue 02 Aug 2022 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 3:11 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
(b)/(c) are real identification sentences. (I’d prefer (c), too.)
Is é an báicéir é a bhuaigh an duais. = He is the baker who won the prize.

Subject is the last "é", first "é" is sub-predicate, "an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais" is predicate.

Caoilte wrote:
Your example (c) is not a legitimate sentence, i don't think.


It is legitimate.


I stand corrected. So the following sentences mean the same thing then: "Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais é."; "Is é an báicéir é a bhuaigh an duais.", with the second one being preferable.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 4:11 pm 
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Thank you all! Thanks Galaxyrocker for being willing to look it up in your book for me! If it saves you time, I think I 100% understand now though. :GRMA:

And thank you too, Caoilte! :D

And Labhrás! :GRMA: It all makes complete sense now… and luckily I just did a semi-detailed read on cleft constructions on nualeargais.ie and so your explanation of it here really clicked instantly (I think that’s your website, Labhrás, but I keep forgetting for sure…but anyway, it’s an excellent website and it and the German version are two of my top learning resources. :good: ). Thank you for your detailed reply…I get super happy when I understand a new grammar concept. :clap:

Rosie :wave:


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 6:59 pm 
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Another thing: is é is often pronounced sé. 'Sé an báicéir é.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 7:59 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
I stand corrected. So the following sentences mean the same thing then: "Is é an báicéir a bhuaigh an duais é."; "Is é an báicéir é a bhuaigh an duais.", with the second one being preferable.

It's sort of up to the speaker when the predicate becomes "too long" that it needs to be split. I'd say that sentence is just in the middle ground where either form is equally common.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 8:04 pm 
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There is also this for "he is the baker who won the prize":

An báicéir a bhuaigh an duais, is é é.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug 2022 10:09 pm 
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Ah, interesting format, DJWebb! :D
And, speaking of An Lon Dubh’s point about splitting the predicate, do any of y’all recon the following would be correct: Is í an tsráid í is cúinge sa bhaile. (It is the narrowest street in town)? Or would it have to be: Is í an tsráid is cúinge sa bhaile í. ?


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