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 Post subject: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov 2021 3:17 pm 
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Ur-Mhúmhain or Ormond.
How is this pronounced? /ur-vu:n'/?


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov 2021 10:00 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Ur-Mhúmhain or Ormond.
How is this pronounced? /ur-vu:n'/?


/ur'vu:n´/ (ur unstressed, "ur" somewhere inbetween "ur" and "or")
(only a guess)


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov 2021 3:30 am 
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Hi thanks. I was wondering if there was a gutha cúnta, but then I decided there wouldn't be after a prefix. As you say, there could be an /o/ in this word. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov 2021 10:46 pm 
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I've been told by an expert in Cork Irish that this is pronounced /ur'uːn՛/. Tuath-Mhúmhain is pronounced /tuən՛/.


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov 2021 7:17 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
I've been told by an expert in Cork Irish that this is pronounced /ur'uːn՛/. Tuath-Mhúmhain is pronounced /tuən՛/.


That would fit with 'Deasmhumhain' being pronounced 'Deasumhain' i.e. silent 'mh'.

Using the pronunciation section of teanglann.ie, i could find only two words that feature broad 'rmh' in the middle of the word. these are 'formhór' and 'formhuinigh'.

formhór: The Ulster and Connacht pronunciations use a 'w' sound (with no preceding 'guta cúnta) but the Munster pronunciation uses what sounds like a 'v' sound preceded by a 'guta cúnta'. And they all put the stress on the first syllable, which is not what I would have expected. With 'for' being a prefix of sorts, I would have thought it would not be stressed. [Edit: The Munster speaker at https://forvo.com/word/formh%C3%B3r/ has the same pronunciation as the Munster speaker at teanglann.ie except that he puts the stress on the second syllable.]

formhuinigh: All three dialects use a 'w' sound (with no preceding 'guta cúnta) in the recordings. So there's an apparent inconsistency here regarding Munster (although, granted, the two words are pronounced by different Munster speakers). The stress was on the second syllable for the Munster speaker only.

--

With 'mh' and 'bh' being close, I searched for recordings that had broad 'rbh'. I could only find two.

órbhuí: The Ulster and Connacht recordings have a 'w' sound with no preceding 'guta cúnta'. The Munster recording has a 'v' sound with no preceding 'guta cúnta'.

arbhar: Ulster recording:- pronounced as if spelt 'aruar' (stress on first syllable) Connacht:- 'arúr' (stress on first syllable, also vowel of first syllable made long). Munster:- 'aruar' (stress on second syllable)

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Finally, Ó Dónaill's dictionary has 'arbhú' as a variant of 'arú' (used, for example, in the phrase 'arú inné'). This might suggest that 'arbhú' (with a non-silent 'bh') was the original version of the word, and that later, when the 'bh' became silent, it was respelt as 'arú'.

As it happens, the Munster speaker at https://forvo.com/word/ar%C3%BA_am%C3%A1rach/ pronounces 'arú' as 'arbhú' ('bh' as 'v', no 'guta cúnta', stress on first syllable).


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov 2021 8:04 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
I've been told by an expert in Cork Irish that this is pronounced /ur'uːn՛/. Tuath-Mhúmhain is pronounced /tuən՛/.


That would fit with 'Deasmhumhain' being pronounced 'Deasumhain' i.e. silent 'mh'.

Using the pronunciation section of teanglann.ie, i could find only two words that feature broad 'rmh' in the middle of the word. these are 'formhór' and 'formhuinigh'.

formhór: The Ulster and Connacht pronunciations use a 'w' sound (with no preceding 'guta cúnta) but the Munster pronunciation uses what sounds like a 'v' sound preceded by a 'guta cúnta'. And they all put the stress on the first syllable, which is not what I would have expected. With 'for' being a prefix of sorts, I would have thought it would not be stressed. [Edit: The Munster speaker at https://forvo.com/word/formh%C3%B3r/ has the same pronunciation as the Munster speaker at teanglann.ie except that he puts the stress on the second syllable.]

formhuinigh: All three dialects use a 'w' sound (with no preceding 'guta cúnta) in the recordings. So there's an apparent inconsistency here regarding Munster (although, granted, the two words are pronounced by different Munster speakers). The stress was on the second syllable for the Munster speaker only.

--

With 'mh' and 'bh' being close, I searched for recordings that had broad 'rbh'. I could only find two.

órbhuí: The Ulster and Connacht recordings have a 'w' sound with no preceding 'guta cúnta'. The Munster recording has a 'v' sound with no preceding 'guta cúnta'.

arbhar: Ulster recording:- pronounced as if spelt 'aruar' (stress on first syllable) Connacht:- 'arúr' (stress on first syllable, also vowel of first syllable made long). Munster:- 'aruar' (stress on second syllable)

--

Finally, Ó Dónaill's dictionary has 'arbhú' as a variant of 'arú' (used, for example, in the phrase 'arú inné'). This might suggest that 'arbhú' (with a non-silent 'bh') was the original version of the word, and that later, when the 'bh' became silent, it was respelt as 'arú'.

As it happens, the Munster speaker at https://forvo.com/word/ar%C3%BA_am%C3%A1rach/ pronounces 'arú' as 'arbhú' ('bh' as 'v', no 'guta cúnta', stress on first syllable).


I think Deas-Mhúmhain s Deas-Vúin.

Conchúr on Forvo is a good speaker and has excellent pronunciation. He may aim for Kerry pronunciation, but it's similar to Cork Irish.


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov 2021 12:09 am 
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There's a village in Co. Cork (near the Kerry border) called Ballydesmond (in Irish Baile Deasmhumhan). However, I was fairly sure I'd seen it spelt as 'Baile Deasumhan' on signposts. So I just checked using Google Street View, and indeed it is spelt without the 'mh' on directional signposts. Although there is a signpost at one approach to the village that has the more complete spelling.

(The village is apparently called after the last Earl of Desmond, who is said to have hid in the locality for a time from the English, after the Second Desmond Rebellion in the early 1580s. I suspect the name is a recent enough coinage in both its Irish and English forms since it replaced the colonial name Kingwilliamstown in the early 20th century. So, it essentially really means Baile Iarla Deasmhumhan.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov 2021 3:12 am 
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Caoilte wrote:
There's a village in Co. Cork (near the Kerry border) called Ballydesmond (in Irish Baile Deasmhumhan). However, I was fairly sure I'd seen it spelt as 'Baile Deasumhan' on signposts. So I just checked using Google Street View, and indeed it is spelt without the 'mh' on directional signposts. Although there is a signpost at one approach to the village that has the more complete spelling.

(The village is apparently called after the last Earl of Desmond, who is said to have hid in the locality for a time from the English, after the Second Desmond Rebellion in the early 1580s. I suspect the name is a recent enough coinage in both its Irish and English forms since it replaced the colonial name Kingwilliamstown in the early 20th century. So, it essentially really means Baile Iarla Deasmhumhan.)


Thank you for the information.
I now see on logainm.ie that the official spelling is Baile Deasumhan. See https://www.logainm.ie/en/1410942?s=ballydesmond
If you go to that link, click on "open scanned records", and then read the first card, it is transcribed into IPA there with no v. So you're right. I didn't know that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec 2021 12:33 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you for the information.
I now see on logainm.ie that the official spelling is Baile Deasumhan. See https://www.logainm.ie/en/1410942?s=ballydesmond
If you go to that link, click on "open scanned records", and then read the first card, it is transcribed into IPA there with no v. So you're right. I didn't know that.


I hadn't thought to check that website. Interestingly, the scanned records also have the variant spelling 'Baile Deasmhumhna'. And there is also a surname 'Ó Deasmhumhnaigh' (anglicised as Desmond) that is speculated to be a branch of the Fitzgeralds of Desmond.

Btw, the male personal name Desmond arose as an adoption from the surname, per wiktionary.org

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One thing I had been curious about in the past was the pronunciation of the vowel in the words 'Mumha', 'Mumhain' and 'Mumhan', specifically as to whether or not it was the pure vowel ú (giving Mú, Múin, Mún) or the diphthong ua (giving Mua, Muain, Muan). From what I now seem to understand, it is the pure vowel ú, albeit a nasal version of this. (Although nasalisation is apparently dying out among Gaeltacht speakers.) At least that's what I understand from listening to the pronunciations of 'Cúige Mumhan' and 'An Mhumhain' at teanglann.ie - the pure vowel ú is used for all three dialects, although only the Connacht speaker uses a nasal ú.

On the other hand, when I listen to recordings of other words on teanglann.ie that contain 'umha', there seems to be some inconsistancy as to whether it should be treated as ú or ua. See examples below.

umhal: Uls: úl; Con: úl; Mun: ual
umha:- Uls: ua; Con: ua; Mun: ua
bonn cré-umha:- Uls: bonn cré-ua; Con: bonn cré-ua; Mun: bonn cré-ú
cumhacht: Uls: cuat; Con: cuacht; Mun: cócht
cumhachtach: cuata; Con: cúchtach; Mun: cúchtach

(Note the speaker for each province might not always be the same for each word. Also none of these examples featured a nasal vowel. Btw, the male Connacht speaker who pronounced 'Cúige Mumhan' and 'An Mhumhain' with nasalisation wasn't the Connact speaker for the other words above.)

One more example: at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_pho ... zed_vowels, the pronunciation of the word 'cumha' is given as [kũː] i.e a nasalised pure vowel.


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 Post subject: Re: Ur-Mhúmhain
PostPosted: Sun 05 Dec 2021 5:19 am 
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-umh- is /u:/ in Munster, which is why dialectal literature writes -úmh-

it is not /uə/.

Úmhal is pronounced /u:l/. You can add in glide vowels, which are not normally transcribed:/ u:ᵊl/. But then if you're going to write out all glide vowels, you will have made a rod for your back.

Teanglann.ie is not a fully authentic resource, because in many cases the "native speakers" read out words with the wrong pronunciation. Native speakers today are no Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's and clearly in some cases they don't know the word they're reading out.

Try marbhna on that site - Dinneen said this is either marana or marthana, but the "native speaker" there said "maravna".

-igh- is /i:/, so you can write ríghneas.

Most of these long vowels are indicated in Peadar Ua Laoghaire's manuscripts, which is why books in Muskerry Irish normally show the pronunciation quite well.

cómhachacht is /ko:xtəx/. If a "native speaker" says /ku:xtəx/, you're getting the CO version.

I'm told some children speak great Munster Irish before they hit the bun-scoil. Within 2 years the school in the Gaeltacht destroys the children's Irish.


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