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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul 2012 9:48 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1300

That is very useful. And not as intimidating as I would have thought. :GRMA:

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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul 2012 9:55 pm 
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The spelling reform was a big mistake. Why couldn't they just leave it as it was. Previous generations were able to learn it ok. :S

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I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul 2012 10:07 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1300

That is very useful. And not as intimidating as I would have thought. :GRMA:


spelling reform- the day Irish became more complicated.

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jul 2012 10:29 pm 
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:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
We already talked about that. Some of the simplifications are ok, some others make the spelling more complicated (at least for learners, but anyway those of us who are fluent here, have managed to learn the modern spelling so it's not impossible to learn).
Btw, I think one of the reasons they chose to simplify the spelling and to use the Roman script, was to save money... less letters, so less ink and less paper, and an alphabet that would be used in most other Western European countries...

Bheinn ábalta sgríobh ins an t-sean-leitriughadh fosta ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh sé deacair ag na foghlaimeoirí, ach amháin má tá foclóir Dinneen acu agus má tá siad ábalta 'n sean-leitriughadh a léigheamh :mrgreen:
Bidheann iongantas orm nuair a tchíom an oiread daoiní arbh fheárr leóbhtha 'n sean-leitriughadh :-) Dá ndéanfasmaid achainidh (?) fá dtaobh dó sin agus dá seólfasmaid chuige'n Rialtas í, an síleann sibh go n-éisteóchthaidhe linn agus go dtiocfasmaid ar aist ar an t-sean-leitriughadh mar leitriughadh oifigeamail? :mrgreen: (tá eagla orm nach nglacfadh na foillsightheóirí ná 'n Roinn Éadóchais leis...)

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 9:36 am 
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I am old enough to remember the introduction of an litriú núa and cló romhánach in the 50s. The general opinion then was that if they simplified the spelling and introduced a typeface that was known to the public from the newspapers then they would immediately begin to speak Irish as an everyday language!
Also, trade was picking up and it was felt that if English-language typefaces on typewriters could be used (Irish typefaces were very expensive and few) then the commercial area would also jump into trading-communications in Irish. It never happened. The de Baldy dictionary of 1959 didn't help either. It introduced Anglicised words where perfectly long-standing Irish ones were available - a trait that still continues to this day.

I think that the litriú núa was a good thing in many cases. It got rid of all those superfluous dh's and gh's
that cluttered up the language. On the negative side we lost the root of many words. The cló romhánach, in my opinion, was a disaster. What was a language written in a beautiful script became a dog's dinner which I still sometimes find difficult to read. What with computers, I don't see any reason why we could not revert to an sean-cló! in the printed word. (Now there's one hobby-horse well ridden)


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 10:43 am 
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Quote:
I think that the litriú núa was a good thing in many cases. It got rid of all those superfluous dh's and gh's
that cluttered up the language.


but many of them would be pronounced in certain dialects. For instance, in a noun, final -adh and final -a are pronounced the same way in Connachta and in Munster, but in Ulster, final -adh is pronounced -ú...

Quote:
On the negative side we lost the root of many words. The cló romhánach, in my opinion, was a disaster. What was a language written in a beautiful script became a dog's dinner which I still sometimes find difficult to read. What with computers, I don't see any reason why we could not revert to an sean-cló! in the printed word. (Now there's one hobby-horse well ridden)


the old script is very beautiful, that's right, but I can see at least one problem: the séimhiú dots are sometimes quite small or not well printed and when you read, if you don't see one of them, it changes completely the pronunciation (and even the meaning, sometimes). You don't see these dots as clearly as the h's.

Concerning de Bhaldraithe's dictionary, I don't see what Anglicized words you're talking about (can you give examples, please?). What I like in that dictionary, is that it's full of idioms, so the people who use it aren't tempted to translate the English sentence word for word. Well, many learners do, but if we only had a dictionary with few sentence examples and few idioms, Irish would have become completely nonsense in non-native speech/writing (btw that's what happened with Breton, most of the time, because the most-sold dictionaries are rather lexicons, so most non-native speakers simply translate the French idioms word for word because these dictionaries give very few examples and idioms).

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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2012 2:21 pm 
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A Lughaigh,
No, I can't give you examples of Anglicized words in de Baldy. You must remember that I am recalling a situation that existed over 60 years ago! I would need to go through the whole dictionary word for word.

As for the h. I recognise that this may be a generational thing. I have a copy of Scéal Fá Dhá Chathair le Charles Dickens (Dublin 1933) which I return to constantly. The fada and the seimhiú cause no problem. This may be due to the quality of the print and the fact that I first learned to read in the old cló.. The same goes for various books of poetry. I would hate to have to read any of these books in the cló-rómhánach. Again, I will say that this may be generational.

My position is fairly basic. I will accept any cló if it gets people reading and talking.


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012 2:25 am 
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Quote:
I am old enough to remember the introduction of an litriú núa and cló romhánach in the 50s.

Just to be clear - the authorities didn't introduce an Cló Rómhámach in the 50's. It had been used, along with an Cló Gaedhealach, since the 19th century at least. What they did do was to dump an Cló Gaedhealach - no longer using it in publications and phasing out teaching it in schools.

Any older person with whom I've discussed the matter has (without a single exception I can recall) spoken fondly of the script as one of their favourite parts of learning Irish at school.
My mother can still write her name very elegantly in it.

I've been reading and writing the Irish script for years now. When I first started I assumed it would be difficult for anyone to read it at the same speed as the Roman type, indicating lenition with h, as surely it would be harder for the brain to register the presence, and absence, of those little dots. I assumed wrong. I can honestly say I have no trouble whatsoever in that regard. Typos involving the dots/poinnc are instantly obvious too.

Quote:
The de Baldy dictionary of 1959 didn't help either. It introduced Anglicised words where perfectly long-standing Irish ones were available - a trait that still continues to this day.

The tendency has been - since about the time of the publication of De Báldraithe's dictionary - towards neologisms/technical vocabulary increasingly drawn directly from English. Often these words are used in preference to (and have sometimes ousted) previously established indigenous terms eg. sprionga for tuailm or lingeán, plútacrátachas for maoinfhlaitheas, reifirméisean :no: for athleasughadh (creidimh) etc.

Why are these forms prefered?
Because most material published in modern Irish is translation of one kind or another - either the conventional translation of pre-existing English texts or translation of a writer's own English language thoughts.
Irish is moving away from being a medium of thought and composition and towards being a code into which English is translated.
The large scale importation of English terminology is driven by the requirement seen by some to facilitate this.
Easily recognisable Gaelicisations of familiar English terms, with exactly corresponding semantic range, are a lot easier for these 'translators' to deal with than distinctly Irish words or [heaven forbid!] multi-word phrases with their own semantic ranges.

Added to this is a notion pertaining to English which should have no bearing on Irish:- that neologisms formed from native elements are somehow 'unnatural' or anachronistic and the obsession of eccentric language purist types (e.g. 'Anglish' enthusiasts).
It's true that in modern English neologisms are normally formed from Latin or Greek elements and using a term like 'far-seer' for 'television' - equivalent of the German 'Fernsehen' - wouldn't be natural in modern English. But this is not the case with modern Irish where constructing new words from existing native elements is a normal part of the modern language.

The results of all this stick out like sore thumbs in modern dictionaries and on the like of focal.ie.

Quote:
Bheinn ábalta sgríobh ins an t-sean-leitriughadh fosta ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh sé deacair ag na foghlaimeoirí, ach amháin má tá foclóir Dinneen acu agus má tá siad ábalta 'n sean-leitriughadh a léigheamh :mrgreen:
Bidheann iongantas orm nuair a tchíom an oiread daoiní arbh fheárr leóbhtha 'n sean-leitriughadh :-) Dá ndéanfasmaid achainidh (?) fá dtaobh dó sin agus dá seólfasmaid chuige'n Rialtas í, an síleann sibh go n-éisteóchthaidhe linn agus go dtiocfasmaid ar aist ar an t-sean-leitriughadh mar leitriughadh oifigeamail? :mrgreen: (tá eagla orm nach nglacfadh na foillsightheóirí ná 'n Roinn Éadóchais leis...)

Ca'na thaobh a mbeadh orainn athchuinghe a sheoladh chun an riaghaltais? Ní leo an Ghaedhilg ach le lucht a labhartha. Ní cás leo í ach a oiread, de réir deallraimh.
Is mór an earráid í, dar liom-sa, bheith ag brath ar phoiliteoirí agus ar státseirbhísigh leas na teangan a dhéanamh.


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012 2:49 am 
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Well said Muimhniseoir. :good:

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012 12:08 pm 
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Muimhniseoir wrote:
Irish is moving away from being a medium of thought and composition and towards being a code into which English is translated.
That is such a tragic truth. :(

People with natural, native Irish who can write should write - anything and everything - to keep the language alive and kicking in its own right. Almost all Irish language books, as you mentioned, are translations from other languages, not necessarily just English. I am most familiar with children's books and there are very few that were first published in Irish. There is no real money to be made in publishing Irish language books as the market is so small so it is up to people to do it purely for the love of the language and a desire to see it continue. It is a big responsibility falling on the shoulders of an ever-decreasing number of people.

A forum like this has its own role to play, and the more members who contribute knowledge and debate the better, and the more people, like me, will learn about it all.

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