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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 4:01 am 
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Hi all,

I'm having some trouble with a genitive construction when I want to use an adjective on an initial noun. It'd be great if anyone could clarify the correct way to deal with this kind of situation.

For example, if I want to translate:

resulting from various University projects

Would the usual rule hold whereby only the second noun takes the genitive form, and the first is lenited:

de thoradh thionscadail éagsúla ollscoile

Or, does the use of an adjective negate the general multiple-genitive-rule, meaning that both nouns take the genitive form:

de thoradh tionscadal éagsúil Ollscoile

Or, is there some other, less obvious solution? Perhaps the first noun is lenited, but the adjective still takes the genitive form following it:

de thoradh thionscadail éagsúil Ollscoile

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Adrian.


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 1:08 pm 
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You mention a "rule" against concatenation of genitives. I expect you got that from the modern editions of the Christian Brothers' Grammar. It is worth pointing out that they are insisting on a rule that was not always found in Gaeltacht Irish. Peadar Ua Laoghaire frequently concatenated genitives. That book also has "rules" on lenition that are of questionable relevance to Gaeltacht Irish.

De thoradh tionnscadail éagsamhla ollscoile - this has tionnscadail éagsamhla standing in Absolute Construction (standing in the nominative, despite being in genitive relation). The phrase is effectively bracketed off, and so this can also be called the Bracketed Construction.

The pronunciation: /də ˈhoɾə ˈtʲu:skədilʲ ˌiagˈsaulə ˈolskolʲi/.


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 6:56 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
You mention a "rule" against concatenation of genitives. I expect you got that from the modern editions of the Christian Brothers' Grammar. It is worth pointing out that they are insisting on a rule that was not always found in Gaeltacht Irish. Peadar Ua Laoghaire frequently concatenated genitives. That book also has "rules" on lenition that are of questionable relevance to Gaeltacht Irish.


Thanks very much for your insight here.

I suppose I'm more interested in whether or not there is a caighdean oifigiuil recommended way of doing it. As much as I would personally like to cultivate something of a Munster influence in my own spoken Irish, I find that when I try to bring that influence to work I generally end up redoing the same same workload a second time in a more standardised way.

As for an tAthair Ua Laoghaire, I think he flipped between concatenating genitives and using the nominative form, dependent on the clause. For example, in Niamh, tá sé riamh ag gabháil páirt na Lochlannach i ganfhios, where páirt is not in genitive form. As much as I'd love to have the same mastery of the language as Ua Laoghaire, I find it's easier to start with learning the prescribed rule, then later learn when to apply exceptions.

Of course, if anyone can outline these exceptions to me, or point me towards some reliable account of them, that would be fantastic. I understand, for example, that using a double genitive is generally avoided when the second noun is definite, but that when the first of two nouns is a verbal noun a double genitive is typically used.

Quote:
De thoradh tionnscadail éagsamhla ollscoile - this has tionnscadail éagsamhla standing in Absolute Construction (standing in the nominative, despite being in genitive relation). The phrase is effectively bracketed off, and so this can also be called the Bracketed Construction.


I've heard of Bracketed/Absolute Construction before, but I've never seen any advice regarding where it should/should not be used. At least, I've never heard of it being used in a situation like this, where there's an adjective in the mix, and examples seem hard to find.

For argument sake, is the Bracketed Construction you give above the only way of expressing this, or are any of the examples I gave permissible in general usage?


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 7:46 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Are any of the examples I gave permissible in general usage?


You mean, you're seeking the permission of a committee of learners in Dublin? In that case, the Christian Brothers Grammar (the Irish version, Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí) gives you all the information you need.

Maybe the committee of learners in Dublin produce rules for Chinese, Arabic and Somali too?


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 7:54 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Hi all,

I'm having some trouble with a genitive construction when I want to use an adjective on an initial noun. It'd be great if anyone could clarify the correct way to deal with this kind of situation.

For example, if I want to translate:

resulting from various University projects

Would the usual rule hold whereby only the second noun takes the genitive form, and the first is lenited:

de thoradh thionscadail éagsúla ollscoile

Or, does the use of an adjective negate the general multiple-genitive-rule, meaning that both nouns take the genitive form:

de thoradh tionscadal éagsúil Ollscoile

Or, is there some other, less obvious solution? Perhaps the first noun is lenited, but the adjective still takes the genitive form following it:

de thoradh thionscadail éagsúil Ollscoile

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Adrian.


tionscadal ollscoile = a university project
tionscadail ollscoile = university projects
So:
de thoradh tionscadail ollscoile = as a result of university projects

tionscadail ollscoile is "bracketed" (because of gen. "ollscoile") and so doesn't change for case marking:
de thoradh [tionscadail ollscoile]

Now with adjectives.
Adjectives doesn't change anything. They just share the case form of their noun

So tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile = various university projects
and de thoradh tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile = as a result of various university projects

Tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile is again "bracketed" and so doesn't change for case marking:
de thoradh [tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile]

Quote:
I've heard of Bracketed/Absolute Construction before, but I've never seen any advice regarding where it should/should not be used. At least, I've never heard of it being used in a situation like this, where there's an adjective in the mix, and examples seem hard to find.


Grammar books use the term "aonad brí", i.e. noun + noun (gen.) comprising a new fact
The second noun is in genitive, the first noun remains nominative in form.


Last edited by Labhrás on Sun 25 Jul 2021 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 8:07 pm 
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One of Father Peter's works has this:
Quote:
Mura mbéadh a n-uaisleacht agus a naomthacht agus a n-ionracas, agus naomhthacht a n-easbog agus a n-anam- charad, agus naomhthacht pobuil Chorcaighe móire Mumhan, agus mura mbéadh ionracas gutha agus bréithre agus oinigh agus anama an rígh uasail seo go dtáinís d'á theasargain ; agus go deimhin mura mbéadh t'uaisleacht féin agus t'ionracas agus glaine do chroídhe agus méid t'eagna agus géire t'intleachta, is isteach at' bhrághaid féin do rachainn-se nuair a chuiris amach a' brághaid Chathail mé, agus ní sgarfainn leat go dtí go gcomáin- fí mór-thímpal na h-Éirean tú ag gabháil de chlochaibh agus de mhaidíbh agus de shlataibh agus d'fhuipeanaibh ort, agus gur b'é bás a gheabhfá sa deire 'ná bás do'n ghorta.


Naofacht pobail Chorcaí móire Múmhan

My impression is that this is more likely where the succeeding nouns are definite (Corcaigh is definite and so is an Mhúmhain). In tionnscadail éagsamhla ollscoile, ollscoile is not definite. It may also be that reaching for the genitive plural in the first noun of such noun phrases would be odd (as it looks like the nominative singular and could be confused).


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 8:13 pm 
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I also like Father Peter's letter to the Freeman's Journal, 24 Nov 1915, entitled "Irish at Matriculation", also published in the Cork Examiner, 27 Nov 1915.
Quote:
Castlelyons, Co. Cork,
November 22nd, 1915.

Dear Mr Editor— I have seen from an article entitled “Programme Irish and Real Irish” in the Leader of the 20th November that the matriculation examination in Irish for the National University has formed the subject of many letters to the newspapers recently, and, further, that “the matter has now passed beyond the stage of newspaper discussion, is being investigated by the Coiste Gnótha of the Gaelic League”.

While I do not desire to reopen any newspaper discussion, or to intrude upon any investigation of the subject, I should like to be allowed to put on record a few observations upon Irish as a subject to be taken at matriculation by every student entering the National University, or upon what has been called “compulsory Irish”.

Some six years ago the country was torn up by the difference of opinion as to whether Irish should or should not be an obligatory subject for this matriculation examination, and the Senate of the National University in 1910 (five years ago) decided in favour of “compulsory Irish”.

I fought hard for that decision. The result has been the opposite of what I expected. I could not have anticipated the confusion and disorder that have come to be imported into the administration of the educational systems of the country. We are now told that “Irish as a subject for matriculation in the National University is merely nominal”, and that “that sort of essential Irish is of no direct use to the Irish language”. And the remedy for this state of things is now being considered by the Gaelic League in the form of a proposal

“that the standard for Irish should be raised to the standard for Latin; or that the standard for Latin should be lowered to the present Irish standard”.

As soon as we see Latin coming out of any University in the world to match the Irish inscribed on a cup given as a prize two years ago at the National University Sports, then we can equalise “compulsory” Latin and “compulsory” Irish. The Irish inscription on that cup was so remarkable that it was published in a Dublin paper. It ran:—

CUIRM NA mBAN.
CLUICHE IOLSGOIL NA hÉIREANN.

The English of that inscription is:

THE WOMEN’S BEER.
THE UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND IS A GAME.

By a system of working co-ordination the “game” of the University is carried into the Intermediate system, and there “compulsory Irish” has full scope and full play, because teachers and students have to take what they get, and programme Irish is manufactured and imposed on them. No. The “game” could not be played with Latin.

First of all, the standard of Irish in the University, and in the Intermediate courses is not a true standard. In the next place the experience of the last five years shows that the equipment for teaching Irish is inadequate and varies greatly in different parts of the country. In fixing courses of study this inadequacy and inequality should be borne in mind, and the first step towards reform, in my opinion, should be the removal of compulsion as regards Irish as a subject for matriculation. Make Irish an optional subject. Find a true standard. Irish being optional, that true standard can also be a high one without injustice to students or hardship to teachers.

PETER O’LEARY, P.P.

Maybe he was being a bit obtuse claiming to think cluiche ollscoil na hÉireann meant "the University of Ireland is a game". But by employing the claimed rule of non-concatenation of genitives, a copular sentence is produced: the university of Ireland is a game. To avoid that you have to say: cluiche ollscoile na hÉireann. That gave me a chuckle. That certainly knocks the Christian Brothers out of the park!


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 8:19 pm 
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I have to say what I like most about Father Peter is his personality. It shines through in his letters. He stood for nonsense from no-one. He would have made very short work of the Coiste Téarmaíochta! He spoke and wrote as he did, not in order to promote himself, but because he saw the Irish language falling under the domination of arrogant committees of learners - agus is geárr go rabhadar súd curtha 'na gcónaí aige! Maith an fear!


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 9:30 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
tionscadal ollscoile = a university project
tionscadail ollscoile = university projects
So:
de thoradh tionscadail ollscoile = as a result of university projects

tionscadail ollscoile is "bracketed" (because of gen. "ollscoile") and so doesn't change for case marking:
de thoradh [tionscadail ollscoile]

Now with adjectives.
Adjectives doesn't change anything. They just share the case form of their noun

So tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile = various university projects
and de thoradh tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile = as a result of various university projects

Tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile is again "bracketed" and so doesn't change for case marking:
de thoradh [tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile]

...

Grammar books use the term "aonad brí", i.e. noun + noun (gen.) comprising a new fact
The second noun is in genitive, the first noun remains nominative in form.


Thanks very much for the explanation, Labhrás. It's very useful, specifically, to know that the inclusion of an adjective doesn't necessarily change anything, at least, in terms of the Bracketed Construction.

One more question occurs to me now, having seen both of your responses avoid lenition of the first noun (regardless of the adjective's inclusion). Is this simply not necessary, or is it unlikely to occur in this construction? For example, you suggest de thoradh tionscadail ollscoile and de thoradh tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile. Would de thoradh thionscadail ollscoile and de thoradh thionscadail éagsúla ollscoile (as I have above) be equally valid?


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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jul 2021 10:37 pm 
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Ade wrote:
One more question occurs to me now, having seen both of your responses avoid lenition of the first noun (regardless of the adjective's inclusion). Is this simply not necessary, or is it unlikely to occur in this construction? For example, you suggest de thoradh tionscadail ollscoile and de thoradh tionscadail éagsúla ollscoile. Would de thoradh thionscadail ollscoile and de thoradh thionscadail éagsúla ollscoile (as I have above) be equally valid?


I see it as no different to 9.36 in the book published by the committee of learners in Dublin:

9.36 Is minic freisin nach n-úsáidtear an ginideach
*ar ainmfhocal (gan an t-alt) roimh ghinideach éiginnte, go háirithe ar lorg réamhfhocail chomhshuite: airgead a chlann mhac; an oiread fonn eolais; saghas slí bheatha; faoi choinne clocha duirlinge; os cionn beochán beag tine; i ndiaidh am paidrín; de bharr maidin sheaca.

What is the difference between de thoradh+functional genitive noun+declined genitive noun and faoi choinne clocha duirlinge and de bhárr maidin sheaca?

Your committee of learners in Dublin did not cover all possible circumstances in their book, it seems. I mean -- if you are aiming to write in the Irish of the committee of learners in Dublin, what difference does it make if you get it right (according to them), or not? You still won't have good Irish, as the beloved Caighdeán isn't good Irish.

There is a database of Irish-language laws on gaois.ie, written in the Irish of the committee of learners, and you can see there:

1. lúide luach na gcaillteanas athfhillteach de thoradh gnáthrátaí diomailte, gadaíochta nó damáiste trí thaisme. minus the value of recurrent losses due to normal rates of wastage, theft or accidental damage. (some regulation published by Ireland's beloved EU)
2. Bíonn an luach tagartha ag luainiú de thoradh choinníollacha an mhargaidh. The reference value fluctuates in response to market conditions. (another regulation by the beloved body - note this has a definite qualification, not an indefinite one)
3. Ar an dóigh sin, faightear na táblaí seo a leanas de thoradh phróiseas an chomhardaithe: Thus, the following tables result from the balancing process: (by the same body)
4. gcás ina gcuirfear cosc ar oifigeach, le linn a thréimhse phromhaidh, a chuid dualgas a chomhlíonadh ar feadh tréimhse leanúnaí míosa amháin ar a laghad de thoradh breoiteachta, de thoradh saoire máithreachais faoi Airteagal 58, nó de thoradh tionóisce, féadfaidh an t-údarás ceapacháin síneadh a chur lena thréimhse phromhaidh ar feadh tréimhse a chomhfhreagraíonn don tréimhse sin. Where, during his probationary period, an official is prevented, by sickness, maternity leave under Article 58, or accident, from performing his duties for a continuous period of at least one month, the appointing authority may extend his probationary period by the corresponding length of time. (another regulation published by the beloved body)

De thoradh saoire máithreachais.


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