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PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr 2021 3:59 pm 
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Céad míle fáilte!

I'm recording book 3 in a bestselling thriller series and have run into an "ancient song" that is a big clue in the series' ultimate reveal. The author consulted a linguistics professor to help him write it, but the latter appears to have passed since then. I don't have to sing the song (although it would be lovely to find a melody I could set the words to), but I DO have to read the words aloud, obviously.

I love the lilt and musicality of Irish and don't want to muck it up. I have an excellent ear, so I know I can do it, but I need to have someone who can listen to an uploaded file and tell me when I've gone astray.

I'm actively scouring the Internet (YouTube is helpful but sketchy) for pronunciation guides, and I've found some very good things. I was having some problems discerning the broad v. slender but have found something I think will help end my confusion. But I'd still like to have a proper set of Irish ears listening to what I've done.

Would anyone like to share their knowledge with me?

I've just started transcribing the passage into the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) but will go ahead and post it here - perhaps folk can place bets on which spots they think I'm going to massacre? ;) Or what would be a nice traditional tune to put it to? We could have some real fun here!

Go raibh maith agat! :D

Ó, is iad clann an tseansaoil, sliocht Thuatha Dé Danann,
a mhaireas beo ó aois go haois, mar is iad amháin atá in ann dó,
agus eagla orthu roimh an mbean sí is roimh an bhfonn a bhíos uirthi
na blianta a ghoid, a dóthain-se a ghabháil.
Is níl fir dá gcuid fola, ná glaonna dár ligfeas laoch,
a chuirfeas cosc ar na mairbh nuair a éireoidh na mná sí.


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PostPosted: Thu 15 Apr 2021 11:28 pm 
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I removed the original thread in the Gaelic part of the forum, so that all the responses will be here.

_________________
I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr 2021 8:54 pm 
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So I've been trying to get the right substitutions in the IPA, but I realize not everyone knows the IPA, so I'm pasting the Irish words below and then directly beneath them, I'm attempting to write them phonetically. I hope this will make sense. (Fingers crossed!)

I'm using “kkk” for the lighter "k" sound in the back of the mouth; and “ggg” for the heavier "k" sound in the back of the throat. I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed at all the substitutions and trying to keep it all straight. I hope somebody can correct me. :-)

Ó, is iad clann an tseansaoil, sliocht Thuatha Dé Danann,
Oh, eesh ee-add clahn ahn chan-seal, slikkkt too-uh djay dah nahn.

a mhaireas beo ó aois go haois, mar is iad amháin atá in ann dó,
Ah ware-as boh oh eesh goh hish mahr eesh ee-add ah-wayne ah-tah inn ahn doe,

agus eagla orthu roimh an mbean sí is roimh an bhfonn a bhíos uirthi
ah-guhs ehglah or-who riv ahn mehn shee ish riv ahn wohn ah whis irhi

na blianta a ghoid, a dóthain-se a ghabháil.
nah bli-yahn-tah ah gggid, ah doe hayn shee ah gggah-whale-yuh.

Is níl fir dá gcuid fola, ná glaonna dár ligfeas laoch,
eesh neel fir dah gid foe-lah, nah gleenah Lahr leeg-face leekkk

a chuirfeas cosc ar na mairbh nuair a éireoidh na mná sí.
ah ggg-eer face kohsk air nah mare nuh-wear ah air-eedj nah meh-nah shee.


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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr 2021 9:54 pm 
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I'd prefer IPA.

English transcriptions are strange and not understandable for me - so too hard to work with.
Irish sounds are too different from English ones.

Quote:
Oh, eesh ee-add


No, no. "is", the copula, is never pronounced "eesh". It is "uhs" /əs/
But here (before é, í, iad, ea and a few other words) it is "sh" /ʃ/ without a vowel because it combines with iad: "sheead" /ʃiːəd/


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr 2021 10:40 am 
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Thank you for responding! I wasn't quite sure if I understood what you were saying in your note. Are you saying the "is iad" in line 1 is brought together like a contraction?

I've been pulling my hair out with some online IPA keyboards. I'm used to just writing the characters by hand, so I'm hoping that what I've used below IS what I want I think it's representing.

My advance apologies for any butchering of the language.

Ó, is iad clann an tseansaoil, sliocht Thuatha Dé Danann,
o, əʃ iəd klɑn ɑn t͡ʃænʃilj, sljixt ɦuɑɦɑ d͡ʒei dɑnən,

a mhaireas beo ó aois go haois, mar is iad amháin atá in ann dó,
ɑ weɪ̆ræs ɓo o iʃ go iʃ, mɑr əʃ iəd ɑweinʝ ɑtɔ inʝ ɑn do,

agus eagla orthu roimh an mbean sí is roimh an bhfonn a bhíos uirthi
ɑɠəs æglɑ ɔə̆rɦu rɪʋ ɑn mæn ʃi əʃ rɪʋ ɑn wʌn ɑ ʋɪʃ ɪrɦɪ

na blianta a ghoid, a dóthain-se a ghabháil.
nɑ ɓlʝiɑntə ɑ. ɣɪd͡ʒ, ɑ doɧeɪ̆nʝ-ʃe ɑ ɣɑweɪ̆lʝ.

Is níl fir dá gcuid fola, ná glaonna dár ligfeas laoch,
əʃ nilʝ fɪr dɔ ɠɪd͡ʒ folɑ, nɔ gləʝənɑ dɔr lʝiɠæs ləʝəχ,

a chuirfeas cosc ar na mairbh nuair a éireoidh na mná sí.
ɑ χiræs kosk ɑr nɑ meĭrw nueĭr ɑ ɛə̆rid͡ʒ nɑ mnɔ ʃi.

:GRMA:


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr 2021 10:51 am 
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Oh, also, there's an Irish woman who does videos on Youtube about Irish mythology, and she's done at least one video that's smashing because she's pronouncing all of the gods and goddesses' names. She pronounced Tuatha Dé Danann as tuɦɑ deĭ dænən. This goes a little against some of the pronunciation guidelines I've found online (and used in my post above). I like the way she says it - it sounds instinctively correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKw80t094iU


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr 2021 3:37 pm 
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DeborahN wrote:
Oh, also, there's an Irish woman who does videos on Youtube about Irish mythology, and she's done at least one video that's smashing because she's pronouncing all of the gods and goddesses' names. She pronounced Tuatha Dé Danann as tuɦɑ deĭ dænən. This goes a little against some of the pronunciation guidelines I've found online (and used in my post above). I like the way she says it - it sounds instinctively correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKw80t094iU



I was going to say I’ve heard worse (she got the Tuatha Dé Danann pretty much correct) until I heard my own name pronounced.
She is using older spellings on some of the names and mispronouncing them because she’s left the H out (as explained below). And others she’s correct or nearly correct.
She said the book gave alternative spellings, maybe she should read it again to see if he explains why.
I don’t know how to pronounce Old Irish, that’s way back in the 10th century. So I go by how they would be pronounced today.
With the 1940s/1950s spelling reforms the dot/punc above the letter was replaced with a H after the letter. The pronunciation didn’t change. So for example my name was Brig(dot)id, then it was changed to Brighid, and now it’s written as Bríd. Which also explains how Bríd became Bridget, as the Brits didn’t understand our spelling so when they saw Brigid they thought yeah that’s Bridget, even though the Irish name has no connection to the continental European name.


Credne = Credhne (the DH silent)

An Dagda = An Daghda (the GH silent), so there is no G sound.

Midir = Midhir = Mír (like the Space Station)

Nuada Airgetlamh = Nuadha Airgidlámh (DH silent)

Airmid = Airmheadh https://forvo.com/word/airmheadh/#ga

Badhb =Badhbh

Brighid = Bríd :bash:

Eiru/ Etain/ Anu/Danu- I think they have a fada, I’m not sure.

Fand and Flidais = she tried to pronounce them in the modern way

Fotla = modern spelling: Fódhla or Fóla


She said she's giving standard pronunciation, there is no such thing. There is only standard spelling, the pronunciation is whatever dialect you're speaking.


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PostPosted: Wed 21 Apr 2021 11:46 pm 
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Thank you, Bríd!

Part of what's been so hard is there are all sorts of different pronunciations out there. I just want to do credit to the language. I have an excellent ear but it's hard to mimic what you've never heard. Would you be interested in recording the lines from the book and posting them? I can add you in the acknowledgments and get you free copies of the digital and audio book if you'd like.

On another point, how often do people speak Irish in Ireland? I remember reading somewhere that it had almost become a dead language and the country made a huge effort in the schools, etc. to make it standard curriculum. Has there been a push to use it in daily life? I'm hoping so because it's so beautiful and lyrical.


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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr 2021 8:43 am 
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DeborahN wrote:
Thank you for responding! I wasn't quite sure if I understood what you were saying in your note. Are you saying the "is iad" in line 1 is brought together like a contraction?


Yes
oː ʃiəd̪ kɫɑn̪ ...

Pronunciation differs accordig to dialect.
What dialect do you prefer?
I'm not good in mimicking a dialect. I use a mix of dialects, mostly Connacht.
I suppose you prefer Ulster dialect. There are others knowing Ulster Irish well.

Quote:
Ó, is iad clann an tseansaoil, sliocht Thuatha Dé Danann,
o, əʃ iəd klɑn ɑn t͡ʃænʃilj, sljixt ɦuɑɦɑ d͡ʒei dɑnən,


oː ʃiəd̪ kɫɑn̪ ən tʲænˠˈsiːl ʃliː(ə)xt̪ huːəhə dʲeː d̪ɑnˠən̪

tʲ becomes t͡ʃ in Ulster dialects only. (same dʲ~d͡ʒ), so t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ are okay for Ulster.
Diphthongization of long e doesn't occur in Irish: eː doesn't become ei
ɦ: I don't think there's a voiced h sound in Irish; h is voiceless (and makes surrounding consonants voiceless)

Quote:
a mhaireas beo ó aois go haois, mar is iad amháin atá in ann dó,
ɑ weɪ̆ræs ɓo o iʃ go iʃ, mɑr əʃ iəd ɑweinʝ ɑtɔ inʝ ɑn do,


ə wɑɾʲəs bʲoː oː iːʃ gə hiːʃ mɑɾ ʃiəd̪ əwɑːnʲ ətɑː nˠɑːn̪ d̪oː

I must work, so I have to stop now :)


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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr 2021 12:11 pm 
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Thank you for the speedy response! To answer your question, I do not prefer one dialect over another. What matters is that I'm consistent throughout. I'll have a look at what you've shared and see if I can suss it out. :GRMA:


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