It sounds like the title of an erudite tome in some dusty Gaelic scholar's personal study library, but I was wondering how one knows a) the gender (I'm guessing caol/leathan and b) is a genitive form anything other than archaic?

For example, in ag iarraidh labhairt, why not ag iarraidh labhairte?

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Genitive of labhairt would be labhartha.

But the genitive of a verbal noun is not used here.
ag* iarraidh labhairt
ag iarraidh dul
ag iarraidh ceannach
ag iarraidh íoc
ag iarraidh gan labhairt
ag iarraidh é a cheannach
ag iarraidh an leabhar a íoc.
etc.

*)
At least in Munster rather a d'iarraidh than ag iarraidh (a pecularity of this verbal noun):
a d'iarraidh labhairt
etc.

Sometimes proleptic á is used in Munster with other verbal nouns, but ag is probably more correct:
á bheartú labhairt leis
ag beartú labhairt leis

I don't know if ever a genitive of the second verbal noun was used here.
Okay, I found some examples in Bedells Bible : ... ag iarraidh labhartha ris ... = trying to speak to him

Yeah, in line with adding t(h)a/te to words ending in r and l

Why isn't the genitive used?

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

It just died out, in common with most other cases of the verbal nouns genitive.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Any idea of the time scale?

I feel it is often assumed that things fell apart all of a sudden, but then you real of texts from the 14th century where Gaeltacht and nouns like have their genitive suspended

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Well there are texts from the early twenty century with it, so I'd say the post famine generation were the last to use it. However I mean this particular construction, not the v.n.'s genitive in general.


Yes most were in contraction as part of a general theme across the language, e.g the genitive of the verbal noun disappearing from different constructions one by one.

For some things though it is hard to know. Like when the accusative stopped being used given how conservative Classical Irish was.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

There's that grammar of Ulster Irish pdf from the 17th century that shows the accusative for 1st declension nouns (and maybe others), but wasn't it once the 'u-coloring; could no longer be perceived in woulds like ceann, then case marking for the dative and accusative wouldn't be viable.

Maybe if Irish used more explicit case morphemes rather than sound mutations and substitutions, case would have been lasted longer

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Do you know an example?

My notes only say in Fánaí by Seán Caomhánach, I'll try reading through it to see if I can find it.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

To give a 'smart' answer, you could say that the accusative forms - e.g. muin(n)tir, aimsir etc... - never fully died out as they found a new 'home' amongst the older nominatives: e.g. muinter, aimser etc... . However, the spread of the accusative into the nominative is actually a symptom of its demise. Whenever a particular form dies out in Irish it spreads rapidly into other contexts. A good example of this is the loss of the deponent verb, which died out c. 850/900, but their 1st and 3rd plural endings - i.e. -ammar, -atar -*** spread to, and later, dominated the preterite. Likewise, from the second half of the nineteenth century, the dative singular and plural spread to the nominative (in some dialects it spread to the vocative) as the dative began to become confused.

*** the modern 2nd plural -aba(i)r supplanted the older -aid termination sometime in the middle- to late- Middle Irish period. It came about through analogy with the other plural endings, i.e. -ammar and -atar.

Traditionally speaking, the accusative is used:

1. To show the object of a sentence:

Co n-accae Óengus in n-ingin (nom: ingen) n-álaind* 'Óengus saw the lovely girl'.

*The noun in the accusative is nasalised when preceded by the sing. definite article. The following adjective should agree with the noun in case and gender and should also be nasalised regardless of there being a definite article present or not:

Co n-accae Óengus ingin n-álaind 'Oengus saw a lovely girl.


2. Following prepositions which govern the accusative:

la firu** 'with men', lassna firu** 'with the men'.

** When all unstressed final vowels fall together as schwa, before the end of the Old Irish period, the u-epithesis, e.g. the -u in la firu, becomes -a, e.g. la fira. The Classical Irish form is la/le fiora


3. With prepositions that are governed by either accusative or dative depending on motion. The accusative form being used when there is motion involved.

We still have this in petrified phrases today; isteach and istigh; amach an amuigh:

isteach = prep. -i + historical -s + teach 'house' (in the accusative; state of motion. As tech was originally a neuter noun, it would of never had specialised accusative forms, as is the case with all accusative nouns)

istigh = prep -i + historical -s + tigh 'house' (in the dative; state of rest).

The accusative regularly began to become confused with the nominative, in all classes, as early as the Middle Irish period; see Liam Breatnach's chapter, 'Middle Irish', in Stair na Gaeilge 240-250 (for verbs). That means that the distinguishable boundary between the accusative - as used to show the object of the sentence - and the nominative - used to show the subject of the sentence - was beginning to become translucent. Around the same time, prepositions that once governed the accusative or the dative fell together and formed one prepositional tense, usually nasalised following the sing. definite article -*** once reserved for accusative - and ending in -aib in the plural - once reserved for the dative plural.

***Obvious exceptions are don (do + an) and den (de + an), which kept the older tradition of leniting, i.e. a feature of the dative. Except in modern Munster Irish where nasalisation is used, except in South and West Cork where lenition occurs. However, we know from northern spoken Irish that nouns were lenited following prepositions + the sing. definite article. But interestingly, at least in the written language, texts associated with the north show a bias to nasalise also.

As you were saying, the accusative survives quite strongly in Classical Irish, but I don't think Classical Irish held much sway over the vernacular Caint na nDaoine - except maybe among the spoken language of the poetic and scribal classes.



That's odd, what are these forms. The correct accusative for 1st declension (o-stem) nouns should be the same as the nominative in the singular, e,g. fear; and with an -a termination in the plural, feara/ fiora.

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice