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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug 2018 2:28 pm 
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Tá sé go breá, bhínn ach fiosrach.


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:16 am 
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Esszet wrote:
I realize most of these would be pretty uncommon, but following the table here and starting with a, does fara form the following contractions and copular forms?

farana
faranár
faranar (both with ar and the regular copular form)
faranarb
faranarbh

I also know that fré means the same thing, but it seems to be even less common (it doesn't even have an entry in Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla; is it used at all these days?


Yes these are correct, as copula forms.

fre comes from Old Irish fri 'against', which becomes ri/ re in Middle and Early Modern Irish; the form dies out in Irish in the 18th century and is superceded by le. The opposite occurs in Scottish Gaelic, whereby the form ri supercedes le.

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2018 6:33 pm 
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Alright, thanks. [url=https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fré]Apparently[/url] (?; see references), fré is still used in Cois Fharraige, so, partially because I edit Wiktionary and combined forms of fré should be on there, I wanted to make sure it is fréna, frénár, frénar, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2018 8:41 pm 
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Esszet wrote:
Alright, thanks. [url=https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fré]Apparently[/url] (?; see references), fré is still used in Cois Fharraige, so, partially because I edit Wiktionary and combined forms of fré should be on there, I wanted to make sure it is fréna, frénár, frénar, etc.


frae:
frum, frat, frois
(m.), frae (f.), fruinn, fraoib, frób

It is fraena chéile or frae chéile
but fros, frois a ... in other instances (frois a cuid bainne)

(acc. to Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge, T. de Bháldraithe)


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018 11:02 pm 
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Fraena is really only used with céile? And so it's also fros, frois ar, arb, arbh?


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Tue 04 Sep 2018 10:55 am 
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Esszet wrote:
Fraena is really only used with céile? And so it's also fros, frois ar, arb, arbh?

Yes, frae/fraena + céile and frois + possessive adjective "a" in all other instances.

There's no mention of relative or copular forms in this (very extensive) dialect decription, prob. because this preposition is seldom used.
And because copular forms of prepositions in general are rare, I'd assume that forms of frae + copula aren't used at all.

(BTW: the adverb freisin, froisin /fres´in´/ (< frois sin), "also", is the only often used form of this preposition)


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Tue 04 Sep 2018 1:58 pm 
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Alright, thanks, that’s probably the best I’m gonna be able to do for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2022 3:38 pm 
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Sorry for necroposting, again! :oops: Found the thread recently, as I’ve been reading about fara, etc.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Yes, an older speaker has directly told me "Siúil faram", in fact in older forms of Irish "Siúil liom" would have been incorrect. (…)


Hard to know, it started retracting during a period when people became bilingual, so maybe "le" expanded due to English influence.

I don’t believe that’s true (ie. it having been incorrect and spreading under English influence). You get Is eol cheana, óir bhí mé seal ag siubhal leis (…) in 1700. There’s also do shiúlfainn féin i gcónaí leat… and/or do sheolfainn féin na gamhna leat…. And fara (or its direct pre-forms) is not permitted in dán díreach at all, so I think to express ‘walk with me’ you’d have to use siobhail liom/leam (though I don’t have an example at hand) – or maybe some more complex expression like maraon rium or i n-aoinfheacht rium (perhaps also goᴺ ‘with’ could be used – but I’ve no idea if it’s ever used with personal pronouns in classical language, I’ve seen gona used for ‘with his’ though).

The phrase le chéile is old too (< le a chéile). I also see some older examples with la like ro fich Lug ... la Coin C. Sesrig mBreslige ‘L. fought (the battle called) S.B. along with Cú C.’ from Lebor na hUidre in DIL.

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
fre comes from Old Irish fri 'against', which becomes ri/ re in Middle and Early Modern Irish; the form dies out in Irish in the 18th century and is superceded by le.

That’s what Dinneen says, deriving fré directly from fri and claiming the meanings ‘towards, against’ for it – but it seems he’s wrong. Frae/fré and fara are historically the same – fa re or fá ré, or fo ré, etc. – double preposition from fa/fo and re ‘against, towards’. It seems it was a common way to say ‘along with’ in early modern Ireland that was rejected in higher style prose (eg. Keating avoids it) and dán díreach. T. F. O’Rahilly warns against “the many errors in Dinneen’s treatment of the word” (see also SnaG, pp. 434 and 506). I’ve added fa ré on Wiktionary and edited the entries for fara and frae.

Also it seems that by the early 1600s le and ri became pretty much interchangeable in Ireland (Conry uses both, but doesn’t distinguish them consistently).

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
The opposite occurs in Scottish Gaelic, whereby the form ri supercedes le.

Scottish Gaelic still uses both, I believe you can say siubhail leam for ‘walk with me’ and ghearraich mi le sgian e ‘I cut it with a knife’, but it uses ri for ‘towards, against, (with)’ in thuirt mi ris a’ bhean e ‘I told it to the woman’, na sabaid ris ‘don’t fight with (against) him’, in comparisons like tha e coltach ri… ‘it is like… it is similar to…’, and also siubhail còmhla rium for ‘walk (together, along) with me’ (from comh + làmh, hand in hand).


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct 2022 12:27 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
Sorry for necroposting, again! :oops: Found the thread recently, as I’ve been reading about fara, etc.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Yes, an older speaker has directly told me "Siúil faram", in fact in older forms of Irish "Siúil liom" would have been incorrect. (…)


Hard to know, it started retracting during a period when people became bilingual, so maybe "le" expanded due to English influence.

I don’t believe that’s true (ie. it having been incorrect and spreading under English influence).

Sorry I really only meant in older Munster Irish. A while ago older speakers had certain phrases where they only used fara (like siúl faram) but these days I notice younger speakers use le, whether under influence from English, the standard or something else I don't know.

I certainly don't know much about the evolution of fara and le historically. Although I really enjoy reading Dán Díreach, especially the ones in Bergin's volume. Writing some oneself is nice practice to see how hard it is to fit the meters and how much skill there was in it.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Faram
PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct 2022 11:25 pm 
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A Londuibh,
I've only come across farais and fairis in the third person singular. I don't know why the r is variously broad or slender. The other forms I've never seen in Muskerry literature.


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