My grandfathers paternal grandmother was born in Scotland. Her name was Catherine Dyer sometimes Catie, Kate, or Katherine Dyer. I know her and I share the same day of birth July 11th and that her mother's maiden name was recorded as Mary Mcdonald. From what I understand her father was born in Ireland and his name was Patrick Dyer. The marriage and birth records suggest CLYDE,GLASGOW,LANARK,SCOTLAND as her birthplace.

What I have read about the name Dyer is that it can be of a Gaelic origin or an English origin. I have read that Dyer which has also been spelled Dwyer, Dwier, Dwire, O'Dwyer, O'Dwire, etc etc. I have read that it is sometimes a result from the Gaelic names like Duibhir, Duibiir, or Duibhidir.

My question is in regards to regional dialects and how they may have been part of what determined how one's anglicized name may have came to be.
Is it possible that an Ó Duibhir or Mac Duibhir may have become Dwyer based on how the name Duibhir(or whatever spelling might have been) was pronounced?
I am trying to determine further origins of my family, but considering the amount of Patrick Dyer's born in Ireland between 1842-1844 it is very hard to really get anywhere further.

I was wondering if the spelling Dyer vs. Dwyer might implicate a regional difference.

Was wondering about taking a bit of liberty in the way I might return my name to what it ought to be for two reasons
One while it might be viewed by some as wrong, I feel it would my future childrens children grasp something deeper in their lifetimes
Two it may preserve the Murphy pronunciation as it is now. What I am saying is sort of crazy I want to have both old and new I guess.


Ó Murfhaidh, Ó Murfaidh, Ó Murchaidh, Ó Murphaidh,

any suggestions or ideas?

Sláinte

Caoimhín Ó Murchadha

I read "Ó Murchadha" and "Ó Murchú". So far I never saw "Ó Murfaidh" nor "Ó Murphaidh", even though they sound closer to the Anglicized form "Murphy".

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Ó Duibhir is modern spelling for Ó Duibhidhir which is a variant of Ó Dubhuidhir ("descendant of Dubhodhar")

It's a surname from Tipperary.
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/od/o-dubhuidhir.php

Ó Murchú is modern spelling for Ó Murchadha.
I've never seen any ph or f in Irish spelling of that name.

how often did the Irish take liberty with determining their surnames spelling after regaelicizing their names?
Or perhaps what I should be asking is how did the modern spellings come about? Was their a committee or some group that decided or something else?

I guess what I am asking is would it be wrong of me to take such liberty with the spelling? The way I see the spellings come across more concise within the phonetic sounds I understand, I also believe liberty to be incredibly important among the Irish and thus it shouldn't be a problem. What I am wondering is how other Irish people would react and/or how readily it would be understood to be pronounced Murphy.

Go raibh míle maith agat

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Caoimhín

I am trying to understand how the pronunciation of Ó Duibhidhir / Ó Duibhir would sound in different areas of Ireland.
I am wondering if some people would pronounce it like Dwyer, Doyer, or Dyer. I am wondering if the way it was spoken regionally would be a factor in the Anglicized spellings.
I am trying to dig deeper into my family and while I have managed to dig far back, I am really hoping to discover a little bit more.

If it wasn't for my great grandfather's first name being Cyril and knowing that he was one of 10 siblings, knowing that he had a significantly older brother named Albert and the marriage record I found I may not have discovered anything further with my paternal grandfather's family.

I am Murphy, Coughlin, Sullivan, and Dyer.

Actually, I think it's more a case of different attempts to approximate Irish sounds which don't exist in English--like "fl" "hl" and "thl" all being used to render the Welsh ll, a distinctive sound which simply has no equivalent in most languages of the world.

I (with my non-native Munster accent) would pronounce this name [d̪ˠɰiːʐ̻]. If those IPA symbols look weird, it's for good reason: most represent sounds which aren't found in General American (the normative US pronunciation). Take [ɰ], for instance. This is like a 'w' but with the lips unrounded. I'm sure you're asking, "How can you make a 'w' without rounding your lips?" You can't, really, but that's the best description I can give of a voiced velar approximant to someone who hasn't learned how to make one.

In a situation like this, English-speakers have a choice: any approximation they choose is going to be similar to the strange sound in some ways but not in others. If it's the similarities which [ɰ] has with 'w' that most strikes them, they'll use w. But if it's the differences (like the slack lips) that seem more important, then they might hear something which sounds like the diphthong in toy or die and write that instead.

Doubtless there could also be variations by region (and over time, since this name was probably anglicised at different times in different locales), but I think these may be less important than the gap between the Irish sounds and what English letters are available to render them.

Thank you!
This was incredibly helpful and I do believe I understand exactly what you mean by a w with unrounded lips(perhaps unrounded as possible
On a pleasant note I discovered my great great grandmothers gravesite and contacted the catholic church(also happened to be her own church a minutes walk away from her last address) that carried out her funeral service in buffalo and she was indeed born in Scotland July 11th 1862 as I had discovered before.

The irony in all of this is that I found her grave(as well as her eldest son, a daughter(my great grandfathers siblings) and son and law) on a rainy day the 10th of this month which supposedly happened to be international bagpipe day(learned from a lady at the cemetery's office where I inquired for assistance). I am a bagpiper and had no idea this was a thing, but out of all days I would go and find her grave successfully I am a bit blown away by other coincidences I have been dealt that relate to her.

I only stumbled upon a document that had her birthday by accident(or was it) two days after finding my great grandfathers grave.
The document was a 1901 Canadian census and was taken in french so there was plenty of room for mistakes to be had perhaps in misunderstanding.
However the dates corresponded with ww1 draft registration cards and a birth certificate of the son(the one buried with her, as well as his draft registration)

This was when I found her birth certificate which her mothers maiden name was Mary Mcdonald. The first kilt I ever purchased was a MacDonald of Glengerry Weathered kilt. I don't know, but even if these are all coincidences, it is a nice thought to imagine it was no accident and these were no coincidences.

Had it not been raining that day(the irony I speak of before I went off on a tangent) I would have went to my fathers to work on fixing my car horn with him and thus would not have found her grave on "international bagpipe day." Ironic twice because had I went on an unrainy day I would have played bagpipes at her grave, not that I wont later on.