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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb 2016 9:56 am 
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How do you say 'your' in this context ?

Your work has to be done - Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh ? or do I add agat at the end of the sentence ?


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb 2016 11:25 am 
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You can't say that, in my opinion, because -fear isn't the same person as "do".
You wouldn't say "One has to do your work" or in French "on doit faire ton travail". The verbal ending and the possessive must agree.

I'd say either "Caithfidh tú d'obair a dhéanamh" or "Caithfear an obair a dhéanamh". (since the impersonal has no possessive).

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb 2016 3:00 pm 
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I think you're learning Munster Irish franc 91, in which in speech and often in writing it would be "t'obair".

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Feb 2016 5:51 pm 
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Go raibh maith agaibh


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 11:53 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
You can't say that, in my opinion, because -fear isn't the same person as "do".
You wouldn't say "One has to do your work" or in French "on doit faire ton travail". The verbal ending and the possessive must agree.

I'd say either "Caithfidh tú d'obair a dhéanamh" or "Caithfear an obair a dhéanamh". (since the impersonal has no possessive).


I didn't see anything wrong with "Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh" myself, though I understand your point, Lughaidh. Anyway, I googled around and found quite a few (reliable, I think)examples, including these:

- Caithfear mo chomhairle a dhéanamh -Foclóir De Bhaldraithe
- Caithfear do thoil a thabhairt duit - Peadar Ua Laoghaire
- Caithfear bhur n-iarrachtaí a mholadh
- Chaithfí a ngruaig a níochán - (Native speaker on Tuairisc.ie

Quote:
You wouldn't say " One has to do your work" or in French "on doit faire ton travail".


No, but you could say "Il faut faire ton travail" and "It is necessary to do.. /they must do... (in the vague, indefinite sense). Actually, "do your work" is a bad example, since you would normally do your work yourself (/one would normally do one's work oneself :D ), depending on the kind of work it was, of course. A better example would be, I think: "Your house must be painted" (probably by a painter, though possibly by yourself. - Caithfear do theach a phéinteáil - 'Il faut peindre ta maison'.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 1:52 pm 
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The problem I have here is this - generally as I understood it - the autonomous form is on its own, no-one can be the doer, but what do you do when the action 'belongs' to someone? Which preposition do you use to imply ownership? By the way, in Munster Irish, what does the 't' stand for here? is it a dialectal form of do?
I have translated this story into French, though usually I try to make the translation as close to the original as is possible, to give an idea of what the original is - I'm often dismayed by translations that seem to become a completely different version rather than a reflection of the original.
(This is a bit off topic, but anyway....)
The original sentence was this - Come on, your job has to be done. I translated this (in a very literal manner) as - Venez, votre travail doit être fait. I would find it more natural to say 'Allez, vous avez du/un travail à faire, but as you can see, it's not quite the same.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 4:57 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
You can't say that, in my opinion, because -fear isn't the same person as "do".
You wouldn't say "One has to do your work" or in French "on doit faire ton travail". The verbal ending and the possessive must agree.

I'd say either "Caithfidh tú d'obair a dhéanamh" or "Caithfear an obair a dhéanamh". (since the impersonal has no possessive).


I didn't see anything wrong with "Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh" myself, though I understand your point, Lughaidh. Anyway, I googled around and found quite a few (reliable, I think)examples, including these:

- Caithfear mo chomhairle a dhéanamh -Foclóir De Bhaldraithe
- Caithfear do thoil a thabhairt duit - Peadar Ua Laoghaire
- Caithfear bhur n-iarrachtaí a mholadh
- Chaithfí a ngruaig a níochán - (Native speaker on Tuairisc.ie


These examples are okay, because it is someone else who takes my advice, who gives you your will, etc.

As far as I understand the autonomous form is analogous to the arbitrary pronouns in German or French, "man" or "on".
"Caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh" = "Man muss deine Arbeit machen" doesn't make much sense in German (except the person is too lazy, overburdened, or unfit for work and you must plan who else could do it). So, I'd think it doesn't make more sense in Irish.

"Il faut ..." etc. is a different way of impersonality, as well as passive voice like English "must be done". They are not really comparable with "on faut", "man muss" or "caithfear".
So I'd think some different way must be used in Irish here, too. You can't use the verb "cathfidh" because it cannot be impersonal (except in an epistemic sense: caithfidh go ...)

Déarfainn:
Ní foláir t'obair a dhéanamh, ní mór t'obair a dhéanamh, is éigean t'obair a dhéanamh, is gá t'obair a dhéanamh, tá t'obair le déanamh, etc.
These (I think) are neutral forms. They say that the work must be done and that it is your work without implying that someone else could/should/would do it.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 5:13 pm 
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franc 91 wrote:
The problem I have here is this - generally as I understood it - the autonomous form is on its own, no-one can be the doer, but what do you do when the action 'belongs' to someone? Which preposition do you use to imply ownership? By the way, in Munster Irish, what does the 't' stand for here? is it a dialectal form of do?


Yes, t' = do = your.


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 10:48 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Errigal wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
You can't say that, in my opinion, because -fear isn't the same person as "do".
You wouldn't say "One has to do your work" or in French "on doit faire ton travail". The verbal ending and the possessive must agree.

I'd say either "Caithfidh tú d'obair a dhéanamh" or "Caithfear an obair a dhéanamh". (since the impersonal has no possessive).


I didn't see anything wrong with "Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh" myself, though I understand your point, Lughaidh. Anyway, I googled around and found quite a few (reliable, I think)examples, including these:

- Caithfear mo chomhairle a dhéanamh -Foclóir De Bhaldraithe
- Caithfear do thoil a thabhairt duit - Peadar Ua Laoghaire
- Caithfear bhur n-iarrachtaí a mholadh
- Chaithfí a ngruaig a níochán - (Native speaker on Tuairisc.ie


These examples are okay, because it is someone else who takes my advice, who gives you your will, etc.

As far as I understand the autonomous form is analogous to the arbitrary pronouns in German or French, "man" or "on".
"Caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh" = "Man muss deine Arbeit machen" doesn't make much sense in German (except the person is too lazy, overburdened, or unfit for work and you must plan who else could do it). So, I'd think it doesn't make more sense in Irish.

"Il faut ..." etc. is a different way of impersonality, as well as passive voice like English "must be done". They are not really comparable with "on faut", "man muss" or "caithfear".
So I'd think some different way must be used in Irish here, too. You can't use the verb "cathfidh" because it cannot be impersonal (except in an epistemic sense: caithfidh go ...)

Déarfainn:
Ní foláir t'obair a dhéanamh, ní mór t'obair a dhéanamh, is éigean t'obair a dhéanamh, is gá t'obair a dhéanamh, tá t'obair le déanamh, etc.
These (I think) are neutral forms. They say that the work must be done and that it is your work without implying that someone else could/should/would do it.


Read my post again, Labhrás. You didn't quote what I said about "...do your work/your work (must be) done " being a bad example - for the very same reason you say it doesn't make much sense. I gave the example "do theach a phéinteáil" to make it clearer, but let's stick to "d'obair" (do chuid oibre?):
"Your work must be destroyed" - presumably someone other than yourself will destroy your work (and 'saothar' would be more suitable than 'obair'): 'Caithfear d'obair/do shaothar a scriosadh.' And franc91's sentence is out of context, which doesn't help.
While the autonomous form may be analogous to "man/on", it's not identical in every way. Anyway, the point of my first post was that, grammatically, there was nothing wrong with 'Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh' (however unnatural or odd it looks).


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb 2016 11:13 pm 
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Here's more context if you need it - (I have already translated all of this up to the last line which we're talking about here)

And the next morning, Féidlim Tonn Rí comes in, very early
and he said "What you have to do today,
you have to clean out an old byre that's here,
that hasn't been cleaned out for a long number of years.
And you have to clean every morsel, everything,
leave it as clean as a new pin as the saying is.
And what's more you have to find my Grandmother's cambric needle,
which was lost in that byre so many years ago.
And if you don't have that done,
I'll have the head down off you by sunset."
"Ah well" says the King of Ireland's Son.
And Féidlim Tonn Rí went away and locked him in.
And he called after him - "How can I get out of here?"
"Oh you'll be out, time enough."
(He) heard the tiptoes again coming and here comes the Lady -
Féidlim Tonn Rí 's Daughter.
"Well, what's the task?" she said and he told her, up and down.
"Ah" she said "my father's a cruel and vindictive man.
But don't worry, I'll see you there at the byre."
Féidlim Tonn Rí came later
and said "Come on, your job has to be done."


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