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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:23 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
When someone defends Urban pronunciation based on Dublin English pronunciation, it is a pretty safe bet they don't have a clue what they are talking about. :winkgrin:


Do you really not understand why people might be angry at the kind of shite you're talking? You have no idea how I pronounce things, so don't criticize my pronunciation without any basis for doing so. You are exactly the kind of stuck-up precriptivist that is turning a huge number of people against the language. You can't hijack it like this. If you don't like how people in Dublin pronounce things, you can go f#ck yourself. I may be banned for saying my mind, which is a shame, because I love the language, and there seem to be many people here with decent opinions, even if I don't agree with all of them all the time, but you just take the biscuit. I couldn't have dreamt up someone as exemplary of the kind of thing I hate as you. No-one is telling you how to speak, so why are you so insistent that we follow your rules? I've said I have no problem with the broad/slender distinction, I am perfectly capable of producing the phonemes /ɾʲ/ (realised in my case by a phone approximating [ʐ]) and /ɾˠ/ (I CHOOSE to say [ɹ], possibly velarised depending on what the following vowel sound is). I am equally capable of producing broad and slender versions of the other consonants (actually, I have a three way distinction between palatalised, velarised and plain consonants).


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:37 pm 
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Ciarán12 wrote:
I CHOOSE to say [ɹ]

:facepalm: I rest my case. :nail:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:39 pm 
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A Chiaráin, do fuaireas m'eolas i dtaobh chanúint Bhaile Átha Cliath ón leabhar "Leabhrann Laighin" agus ón aiste "Na Canúintí ag teacht chun solais" atá le fagháil ins an leabhar "Stair na Gaeilge, in ómós do Phádraig Ó Fiannachta", Kim McCone a chuir in eagar. (Do thagair Cionnfhaolach don leabhar úd i gceann dá theachtaireachtaíbh).

Ciarán12 wrote:
The only part in what I wrote there that I can think of that might have given you that impression is “leis an fhóram”. I'm still very much a learner, so the way I write things is not necessarily a decision I made, it might be a mistake or just the most frequently used way I've come across. Would you say “leis an bhfóram”? For example, I couldn't decide which was better the other day; “sa bhfóram” or “san fhóram”. Yet I know I would definitely say “ar an mbord” not “ar an bhord”, so there may be an inconsistancy there.

This is a subtle issue and the different dialects have different answers to this question.

In the Caighdeán and I think in Conamara and Southern Mayo, preposition + article causes eclipses, except for don, den and sa, where it causes lenition.

In Cork, this is essentially the system, but sa eclipses f.
In Kerry, everything eclipses.
In Donegal, everything lenites.

However the dialects consider the lenition of s in this case to be ts, don tsiopa.

Quote:
I am perfectly capable of producing the phonemes /ɾʲ/ (realised in my case by a phone approximating [ʐ])

That was the pronunciation of slender r in Roscommon and Kilkenny, if I remember correctly.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Last edited by An Lon Dubh on Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:40 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
As I've already said, I have no problem distinguishing broad from slender.

None that you are aware of, at least. :LOL:

So now you're assuming I speak incorrectly, just because I'm from Dublin? Jayzus, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about...

When someone defends Urban pronunciation based on Dublin English pronunciation, it is a pretty safe bet they don't have a clue what they are talking about. :winkgrin:


In fairness, no amount of smilie icons can stop that from being an obnoxious and provocative statement, Breandán. Whatever you think of someone's opinions, you don't have to be rude now, do you? Is this the kind of welcome you want your forum to be known for?

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Ultach mé agus Gaeilg Uladh a labhraim go measardha maith!


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 3:54 pm 
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AnBraonach wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
As I've already said, I have no problem distinguishing broad from slender.

None that you are aware of, at least. :LOL:

So now you're assuming I speak incorrectly, just because I'm from Dublin? Jayzus, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about...

When someone defends Urban pronunciation based on Dublin English pronunciation, it is a pretty safe bet they don't have a clue what they are talking about. :winkgrin:


In fairness, no amount of smilie icons can stop that from being an obnoxious and provocative statement, Breandán. Whatever you think of someone's opinions, you don't have to be rude now, do you? Is this the kind of welcome you want your forum to be known for?
If they choose to come onto the forum in belligerent mode and start ranting, I don't think they can really complain now, can they? Some of us are just as passionate about defending the language from English as some Dubliners are about starting their own dialect. :ninja:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 4:07 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
If they choose to come onto the forum in belligerent mode and start ranting, I don't think they can really complain now, can they? Some of us are just as passionate about defending the language from English as some Dubliners are about starting their own dialect. :ninja:


'Belligerent mode'? Dia ár sábháil! You're exaggerating now in order to justify your own intervention, which was, whatever way you look at it, obnoxious.

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Ultach mé agus Gaeilg Uladh a labhraim go measardha maith!


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 4:14 pm 
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"English r's have no place in the Irish language" - what an obnoxious proposition. :LOL:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed 05 Dec 2012 4:34 pm
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Location: Barcelona, Catalunya (ó Bhaile Átha Cliath ó dhúchais)
Breandán wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:
I CHOOSE to say [ɹ]

:facepalm: I rest my case. :nail:


I fail to see how saying [ɹ] is a problem, so long as I still make a broad/slender distinction.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
A Chiaráin, do fuaireas m'eolas i dtaobh chanúint Bhaile Átha Cliath ón leabhar "Leabhrann Laighin" agus ón aiste "Na Canúintí ag teacht chun solais" atá le fagháil ins an leabhar "Stair na Gaeilge, in ómós do Phádraig Ó Fiannachta", Kim McCone a chuir in eagar. (Do thagair Cionnfhaolach don leabhar úd i gceann dá theachtaireachtaíbh).


Go raibh maith agat as do chabhair! Tá an leabhar "Leabhrann Laighin" agam, ach níl sé léite agam go fóill. Is dóigh gur chóir dom "Stair na Gaeilge" a cheannach freisin, feictear gur seift maith é.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
This is a subtle issue and the different dialects have different answers to this question.

In the Caighdeán and I think in Conamara and Southern Mayo, preposition + article causes eclipses, except for don, den and sa, where it causes lenition.

In Cork, this is essentially the system, but sa eclipses f.
In Kerry, everything eclipses.
In Donegal, everything lenites.

However the dialects consider the lenition of s in this case to be ts, don tsiopa.


I thought as much. For the moment, I'll go with what the Caighdeán uses (so "san fhóram", but "leis an bhfóram[/i]", right?), but it's good to know how it works in other dialects.

Breandán wrote:
If they choose to come onto the forum in belligerent mode and start ranting, I don't think they can really complain now, can they?


It is regrettable that this was to be my introduction to the forum. I'm not a troll, a don't argue for the sake of it, but this is clearly a touchy subject for me.

Breandán wrote:
Some of us are just as passionate about defending the language from English as some Dubliners are about starting their own dialect. :ninja:


But I don't see how anything I've said threatens the language in anyway. I'm FOR the strengthening of the dialects (in the areas where they were traditionally spoken, by the people who traditionally spoke them). I agree that the effect the policy of the State is detrimental to the dialects, and that that needs to be changed, I just think that applying one strategy to the whole country isn't the answer. Dialects for the Gaeltacht regions and surrounding area, revival of Leinster Irish for Leinster and the caighdeán so that we can all still understand each other. It's the "better" and "worse" attitude that's the problem, and you clearly think you're better than me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 4:36 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
"English r's have no place in the Irish language" - what an obnoxious proposition. :LOL:


Hmm... interesting how "english r's" (i.e. [ɹ]) aren't actually used very much in England, but universal in Ireland, and present in other languages too. Maybe we should stop using English s's and m's too, and don't forget the German ch's we have, they've got to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 4:57 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
In the Caighdeán and I think in Conamara and Southern Mayo, preposition + article causes eclipses, except for don, den and sa, where it causes lenition.

Sa causes eclipsis in Conamara, i.e., sa mbád, sa bhfóram, etc.

Ciarán12 wrote:
It's the "better" and "worse" attitude that's the problem, and you clearly think you're better than me.

No, I simply feel that the native sounds should be used in Irish, not the English ones.

Ciarán12 wrote:
Breandán wrote:
"English r's have no place in the Irish language" - what an obnoxious proposition. :LOL:

Hmm... interesting how "english r's" (i.e. [ɹ]) aren't actually used very much in England, but universal in Ireland, and present in other languages too. Maybe we should stop using English s's and m's too, and don't forget the German ch's we have, they've got to go.

The [ɹ] sound is used widely in England outside London. "The actual pronunciation of /r/ varies between dialects; most common is the alveolar approximant [ɹ]." (Wikipedia)

That r was even more prevalent in the period from Middle English into early modern English when the Irish started to learn English under British occupation.

Even though some aspects of English accent sometimes reflect the native Irish pronunciation, the pronunciation of Hiberno-English r isn't one of them. :no:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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