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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 7:15 pm 
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I realise this and I am very, very sorry!!! I was only wondering, and the different opinions were exactly the answers I was looking for, especially Ciarán's view on the Dubliner's Accent. I am so sorry for any offense I may have caused. I'm really grateful to Ciarán for speaking up and giving his side of the story, because I was not aware of that before, and it has opened my eyes to the way I'll look at things! I respect and appreciate everyone's opinions and think they're all valid

Saoirse wrote:
What we need to remember is that everyone who has contributed to this discussion all share a love of the Irish language and do not want to see it die. How we choose to embrace the challenges of that may differ slightly, but we have far, far more in common than it sometimes sounds when the debate becomes heated. :party:
:good:

and that Ciarán will be a very good asset to the forum, bringing more opinions so that we can be more informed. I feel very badly for causing offense!

Thanks you
A


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 7:24 pm 
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Don't worry Annabeth, I think Saoirse was only joking.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 7:29 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Don't worry Annabeth, I think Saoirse was only joking.
I was absolutely kidding! It was a great question and look at the number of hits the thread has got. You have got people thinking and that's always good! I await your next question with interest..... :hide:

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Is foghlaimeoir mé. I am a learner. DEFINITELY wait for others to confirm and/or improve.
Beatha teanga í a labhairt.


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 7:32 pm 
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Oh, good! But I still honestly felt that I should apologise for any offense beforehand too! Whether it was intentional or not, right?

:)
A


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 7:48 pm 
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On the subject of this thread, for a lot of Irish people, Irish was the language of our ancestors and the language
of the vast majority of this islands historical literature. However it is not the language of most of the country today, most of
us do not speak the language natively and our phonemes and intonation are ones of a regional variety of the English language.
Hiberno-English lacks a few of the sounds of Irish and also lumps what are different phonemes in Irish into a single phoneme
in English. Hiberno-English also has sounds that Irish lacks.

If one takes sounds from Hiberno-English over to Irish, then you are using sounds foreign to the language, sounds native speakers
of your area (even in Leinster) did/do not use. You might considered these sounds and intonations a part of your identity, but
they are simply not Irish sounds. If you want to speak Irish well, you shouldn't use them.

Rather you should emulate the sounds of one of the living dialects. This is not because Dublin is not Irish, or culturally impoverished,
or because Irish is not part of the heritage of Leinster, but simply because the Gaelteacht areas in Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Galway,
Mayo and Donegal are the only areas to still have the native living language. Any other form of Irish is simply "made up".

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012 8:05 pm 
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And if you really feel you need to have a "dialect neutral" form rather than an actual dialect (for whatever reason), then what is in Buntús Cainte is an example that does this using the native phonemes, the way native speakers of a language naturally do when they go to a different region.

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Sun 09 Nov 2014 2:26 pm 
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http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=39099

Here is one of the prior posters on another forum I came across

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2021 3:41 am 
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Dear all, this thread came up in an Internet search when I searching for something else, and I decided to register to comment on the R's in Munster Irish. I have written an article on Muskerry Irish pronunciation that I am going to try to get published, and so, despite the solipsism in doing so, I would like to quote from an edited version of my article (although I cannot guarantee if I get it published it will be in this form). IWM means "The Irish of West Muskerry" by Brian Ó Cuív. The numbers are page numbers, not section numbers. Ó Loingsigh is Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh. Ó Céileachair is Dónall Bán Ó Céileachair. Sommerfeldt is Alf Sommerfeldt. Ó Súilleabháin is Eóiní Mhaidhí Ó Súilleabháin who I interviewed in Muskerry.

The presentation in IWM (49-50) shows that the broad r at the beginning of a word was a post-alveolar fricative in Ó Loingsigh’s Irish, “formed by raising the tip of the tongue towards the back of the teeth-ridge”, with [ɾ] (the flapped r) occurring elsewhere. I’m unsure of Brian Ó Cuív’s description of the first of these allophones of broad r: he seems to be describing something acoustically similar to the post-alveolar approximant [ɹ] as used in most of England, but one formed with the tip of the tongue.

Quote:
[Footnote: There has been some academic discussion of the nature of the English r. In a blog post, John Wells, a respected retired professor of phonetics at University College London (UCL), pointed out that the English r has been described (e.g. by Daniel Jones, an earlier professor of phonetics at UCL) as being formed with the tip of the tongue, whereas Professor Wells believes he has a “bunched or molar” variant (http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/ ... lar-r.html). The molar variant is not apical at all, and does not appear to be the same sound as the initial broad r described for speakers including Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh.]


Sommerfelt described Ó Céileachair’s initial broad r as “strictly speaking not a genuine r-sound, but a sort of voiced spirant. The tip of the tongue is brought towards the arch-rim and the breath escapes over the tip” (“Munster Vowels and Consonants”, 214). I suggest [ɹ̝ˠ] for this. The audio file offered by Foras na Gaeilge for the pronunciation of rí in Munster Irish (http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/rí) is no doubt by a speaker of Kerry Irish, relatively close geographically to Muskerry, but is indistinguishable from the approximant [ɹ] used in most parts of England and may be by a younger speaker. By contrast, an audio file of Dara Ó Cinnéide’s pronunciation of the same word (http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... 47&Page=10) shows stronger friction. Ó Cinnéide seems to have [ɹ̝ˠ], but on the same page in raon and roinn he has [ɾ]. This suggests that, as with Ó Cuív's description of Ó Loingsigh's Irish, an apical velarised approximant (not the molar or bunched r found in much of England today) can be used at the beginning of a word, although a flapped r is not wrong there either, but that medially and finally a flapped r must be used.

A slightly crackly audio file (https://www.doegen.ie/LA_1033d1) of Ó Loingsigh’s Irish held in the Doegen Records project maintained by the Royal Irish Academy appears to show minimal friction for raghad, which is apparently an approximant ([ɹ̝ˠ]), but greater friction in go raibh, where the r of go raibh is essentially intervocalic and thus flapped ([ɾ]). I don’t have any information as to how long either [ɹ̝ˠ] or [ɹ] have been used in Muskerry Irish. However, the post-alveolar approximant was not always used in English either:

Quote:
At some stage in the development of StE it is probable that there was a change in the nature of r from a point-trilled consonant to the PresE post-alveolar fricative, which in acoustic effect is closely allied to the vowel [ə]; but in intervocalic position it commonly remained either a trilled consonant or the PresE ‘flap’ [r]. When the change occurred it is impossible to determined, but the influence of r from the late fourteenth century onwards, and particularly its ModE influence on ĭ, ĕ, and [ʌ] < ME ǔ, suggest that it must have been closely similar to the PresE sound. (English Pronunciation 1500-1700, Vol II, 945-946)


I quote this, because it seems that the development of English has been along similar lines. Interestingly, the audio file of rí for Ulster Irish given by Foras na Gaeilge (see the link above) has [r] (a trill and not a tap). Whatever the history of this, it seems that younger speakers of Irish, are generalising the English r, both initially and elsewhere, and in broad and slender environments. Ó Súilleabháin maintains the correct distinctions between [ɹ̝ˠ] and [ɾ] (allophones of broad r in initial and non-initial environments respectively) and [ɹ̝ʲ], which is the slender r. I here borrow the notation used by Diarmuid Ó Sé in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne (19) to show a palatalised apical post-alveolar fricative. In addition to this post-alveolar fricative, in IWM, Ó Cuív also identifies a flapped slender r, [ɾʲ], an allophone used only after only palatalised consonants.


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2021 3:59 am 
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I think the approximant R was not found anywhere in Ireland at one stage, but by the time of Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh it was there at the start of a word - as long as you remember it is apical (formed with the tip of the tongue against the teeth-ridge) and velarised. Diarmuid Ó Sé in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne doesn't really recognise the approximant R as a broad R variant other than in singing (?? for some reason, whereas I think you would be more likely to need a flap while singing), and so there may be something modern about the way some words pronounced by Ó Cinnéide sounded like they had an approximant at the beginning of the word. However, this was clearly an apical sound, nonetheless, and not exactly the modern English r.

For this reason, if people like Ciarán in this thread want to use [ɹ̝ˠ] for broad R at the beginning of a word, that is fine. But it is not good Irish in non-initial position. See Dara Ó Cinnéide's pronunciation of leabhar, at http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... ho=leabhar The final r is clearly flapped.

Slender R is [ɹ̝ʲ], but becomes [ɾʲ] after palatlised consonants. For [ɹ̝ʲ], listen to Ó Cinnéide pronounce an chathair at http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/en/Recordings. ... onemeID=48

I suspect that most learners in the Gallthacht who believe they distinguish between leabhar and leabhair don't in fact do so, and don't pronounce either of them right. If you can't do a slender R, you can say leabhra in the plural, thus avoiding the slender R.

Another thing to note is that there are many combinations where an R is broadened. Eg in "rs", the r is broad even if the s is slender (at least in Muskerry). This is because it is difficult say otherwise. So labhair sé is actually pronounced labhar sé, and you would want [ɾ] there, not [ɹ̝ʲ].


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 Post subject: Re: Rs
PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2021 4:07 am 
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The list of combinations where R resists patalisation is given on p11 of IWM and includes rd', rt', rn', rhn', rl', rhl' and rs'.


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