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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:19 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
silmeth wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
But there are phrases like is é an áit, is é mo thuairim and others where a feminine noun is referred to by é - apparently not focusing too much on the gender of noun.


Those are a bit different.

is é mo thuairim go… uses é because the pronoun here refers not to the noun but to the go-subordinate phrase that follows, the copular structure is literally “my opinion (subject) is it (subpredicate): that XYZ (predicate)”. The é is subpredicate referring to go…, and clauses of this kind are always referred to with the default pronoun é, never í.

I’d expect í in cases like is í mo thuairim-se an tuairim gur aontaigh gach éinne léi (though even in such cases, I guess, is é mo thuairim would be common under influence of the type above).

I deal with this type here in my Guide to Irish “to be”.

is é an áit is different yet because áit is commonly referred to with masculine pronouns in general.

EDIT: and coincidentally, you’ll often get cad é before feminine stuff because cad é etymologically comes from caide, caidhe (< Old Irish cote) which was independent of gender of the following stuff, but was in early modern language reanalyzed as cad + pronoun and a new form cad í appeared, but the older cad é / caidé, goidé surviving in all contexts too.

Actually, yes. This is equivalent to Nolan's Copula of Identification IIa, another example of which is "is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna". The "go" clause can be seen as similar to "ná".


No. Cé hé an bhean doesn't exist, or at least Labhrás hasn't shown 1) that it exists and 2) that is grammatically correct.


It is in GGBC:
Quote:
16.45 Is minic nach dtugtar ach an fhaisnéis mar fhreagra ar cheisteanna dar tús cé:
Cé hé an bhean sin? [Is í] Cáit Ní Chathasaigh [í].
Cé hé thusa? [Is mé] Cáit Ní Chathasaigh.
Cé hé mise? [Is tú] Seán Ó Sé.
Má cheapann an freagróir nach bhfuil aithne ag an gceistitheoir ar an duine deir sé Cáit Ní
Chathasaigh is ainm di (dom), etc.


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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:44 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
It is in GGBC:
Quote:
16.45 Is minic nach dtugtar ach an fhaisnéis mar fhreagra ar cheisteanna dar tús cé:
Cé hé an bhean sin? [Is í] Cáit Ní Chathasaigh [í].
Cé hé thusa? [Is mé] Cáit Ní Chathasaigh.
Cé hé mise? [Is tú] Seán Ó Sé.
Má cheapann an freagróir nach bhfuil aithne ag an gceistitheoir ar an duine deir sé Cáit Ní
Chathasaigh is ainm di (dom), etc.


Well, according to them, yes. But I don't see GGBC as an authoritative source -- not compared to Peadar Ua Laoghaire, and in his works we read ""Cé h-í an cailín sin?" ar seisean leis an bhfear tosaigh a bhí os cionn na mbuanaidhthe". In fact, where there is anything good in GGBC, it usually comes from Peadar Ua Laoghaire or Gerald O'Nolan, but the sources are not acknowledged. I'd like to see a properly annotated version of GGBC stating where all the citations are from and where all the grammatical rules are from. A large chunk of them are from Father Peter.


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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:44 pm 
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I'd think it would be by analogy of phrases like cé hé mise, but again, I would be surprised to find it in native speech.

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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:46 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Well, according to them, yes. But I don't see GGBC as an authoritative source -- not compared to Peadar Ua Laoghaire, and in his works we read ""Cé h-í an cailín sin?" ar seisean leis an bhfear tosaigh a bhí os cionn na mbuanaidhthe".


This is interesting, as cailín is grammatically masculine, showing that the pronoun aligns with the person and not the noun.

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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:47 pm 
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Phrases where (s)í are used in the context of cailín are very common.

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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:48 pm 
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On GGBC, just take a look at 1.1, where fake names of the letters are stated as being in use, whereas they are not.


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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 4:51 pm 
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Rosie_Oleary wrote:
Dia daoibh! I am wondering if any one can help me understand the difference between a subordinate subject and a subordinate predicate?

On https://www.braesicke.de/kopul5.htm#cadeiiad it says that both
Cé hé an bhean sin?
and
Cé hí an bhean sin?
can be correct depending on whether the é/í is a subordinate predicate or a subordinate subject.
I’m kind of confused about what this means and how it might change the meaning of the sentence depending on which it is?
I understand what a subpredicate/proleptic pronoun is (I think I got that term right), but now I’m kinda confused about how to know when something is a subordinate subject…
Thank you to anyone who can help!


Wh-questions have often an interesting structure in Irish:
The anticipated answer can be seen as the main predicate of the question sentence. As if it were part of the question sentence.
Because the answer is unknown it is referred to by "é".

Cad é X? Y.
This structure resembles pseudo-clefts like:
Is é X (ná) Y.
or pseudo-cleft rhetoric questions as:
Cad é X ná/ach Y?

In all three of them, X is subject, Y is predicate, é is sub-predicate. The word cad is kind of a sub-predicate, too.


But if there is the feminine pronoun í (in case of a feminine subject) this í is sub-subject and cad is the main predicate. (subject is X.)
It is a normal sentence, not a pseudo cleft. It does not already "contain" the anticipated answer (as above). The connection between Q and A is looser. Both are really separate sentences.


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PostPosted: Wed 07 May 2025 5:07 pm 
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Could you give an example of it in a literary work?

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PostPosted: Thu 08 May 2025 11:06 am 
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“Cé hí an cailín sin” sounds correct to me, but does that mean that “cé hí tusa” would be correct if you’re asking a woman that?


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PostPosted: Thu 08 May 2025 12:28 pm 
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beepbopboop wrote:
“Cé hí an cailín sin” sounds correct to me, but does that mean that “cé hí tusa” would be correct if you’re asking a woman that?

No. Father Peter wrote: "Cé h-é thusa? (Sg. III. 321), not cé h-í thusa? Although it was a woman. One woman asks another, an bhfuil fhios agat cé h-é me? never, cé h-í me".


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