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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sat 01 Sep 2012 9:39 pm 
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The English translation doesn't correspond exactly to the irish sentence, That's why.

Quote:
Gráinne an t-ainm a bhí uirthi, ach ní raibh pioc cosúlachta idir í agus an banfhlaith sa sean-scéal.


Her name was Gráinne, and there wasn't any similarity between her and the princess in the old story.

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sat 01 Sep 2012 9:52 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
The English translation doesn't correspond exactly to the irish sentence, That's why.

Yes, my first thought (after I looked up "cosúlachta"!) was "That's not what it says!"

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I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.


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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 5:45 pm 
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Location: 91 - France
I did manage to work out precisely what the Irish means - it's simply that I wasn't expecting this idiomatic use of idir. Would you know if this is a common use of it and would you have other examples of it being used in this way?
It's the opening sentence of St Brigid's Eve/Oíche na Féile Bríde in Fairy Nights/Oícheannta Sí by Mícheál Mac Liammóir (published by O'Brien) and he wrote both versions in Irish and English.


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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
I did manage to work out precisely what the Irish means - it's simply that I wasn't expecting this idiomatic use of idir. Would you know if this is a common use of it and would you have other examples of it being used in this way?


to me it's not idiomatic, it's just that the translation doesn't correspond exactly, but saying "there's no difference between x and y" isn't an idiom...

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 6:50 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
I did manage to work out precisely what the Irish means - it's simply that I wasn't expecting this idiomatic use of idir. Would you know if this is a common use of it and would you have other examples of it being used in this way?


to me it's not idiomatic, it's just that the translation doesn't correspond exactly, but saying "there's no difference between x and y" isn't an idiom...
I have come across this a lot - where there is an English version and Irish version of something. Although the gist is the same, regularly they are quite different, probably to ensure both are phrased to best suit what's most natural in each language. When you are at the early stages of learning, it can make it quite difficult to figure out which bit fits with which bit. When you are further along, it's easy to over analyse and look for some deep and meaningful reason that may or may not be there! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 7:11 pm 
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In my opinion, in bilingual books for learners, the best thing is to give an English translation that is as close as possible to the Irish text (without translating word for word, otherwise it may become hard to understand sometimes :darklaugh: ), even if some sentences aren't the most natural ones in English. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 7:15 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
In my opinion, in bilingual books for learners, the best thing is to give an English translation that is as close as possible to the Irish text (without translating word for word, otherwise it may become hard to understand sometimes :darklaugh: ), even if some sentences aren't the most natural ones in English. :)
:yes: The problem is that, in the case of bilingual children's books, they are not necessarily always written from that point of view, but rather to catch all aspects of the market: those who are looking for a book i nGaeilge, those looking for an English language story and those who may be trying to pick up the cúpla focal. :panic:

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 7:22 pm 
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Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good thing that each version is expressed in language that is as natural and authentic as possible and that it isn't just a carbon copy of the other one. I wasn't under the impression that it was a text for beginners. As I understand it, the author has a good feel for Irish.


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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 7:24 pm 
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franc 91 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good thing that each version is expressed in language that is as natural and authentic as possible and that it isn't just a carbon copy of the other one. I wasn't under the impression that it was a text for beginners. As I understand it, the author has a good feel for Irish.
Then I'd say it was a case of keeping it close to the original, more than the gist, but keeping it natural to each language.

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 Post subject: Re: 'idir'
PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep 2012 7:43 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
franc 91 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good thing that each version is expressed in language that is as natural and authentic as possible and that it isn't just a carbon copy of the other one. I wasn't under the impression that it was a text for beginners. As I understand it, the author has a good feel for Irish.
Then I'd say it was a case of keeping it close to the original, more than the gist, but keeping it natural to each language.

For literature, a good translation should read like a natural native paasage in the target language, but it is also necessary to try to retain the originality of the piece that exists in the source language. Usually literary works in any language are interesting because of their unusual turns of phrase not because they are ordinary. That is one reason literature isn't that great as a learning material.

At the opposite extreme, textbooks can be so literal as to be misleading (that's why I try to give a literal translation as well as an idiomatic one when explaining things here). For instance, my Japanese students found the English translations in Buntús Cainte confusing because they were a bit too literal and only made sense if you were familiar with Hiberno-English.

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