subordinate predicate vs. subordinate subject

Rosie_Oleary · **Joined:** Fri 22 Jan 2021 4:24 pm **Posts:** 137

Wow, y’all! I went offline for one day, and I come back to find I’ve been happily overwhelmed by helpful info! :clap:

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge (Labhrás, your explanation on page two of this discussion really cleared thing up for me. Thank you!) and for such an interesting discussion!

scytale · **Joined:** Sun 17 May 2020 9:39 am **Posts:** 2

Labhrás wrote:

Rosie_Oleary wrote:

Dia daoibh! I am wondering if any one can help me understand the difference between a subordinate subject and a subordinate predicate?

On https://www.braesicke.de/kopul5.htm#cadeiiad it says that both
Cé hé an bhean sin?
and
Cé hí an bhean sin?
can be correct depending on whether the é/í is a subordinate predicate or a subordinate subject.

Wh-questions have often an interesting structure in Irish:
The anticipated answer can be seen as the main predicate of the question sentence. As if it were part of the question sentence.
Because the answer is unknown it is referred to by "é".

Cad é X? Y.
This structure resembles pseudo-clefts like:
Is é X (ná) Y.
or pseudo-cleft rhetoric questions as:
Cad é X ná/ach Y?

In all three of them, X is subject, Y is predicate, é is sub-predicate. The word cad is kind of a sub-predicate, too.

But if there is the feminine pronoun í (in case of a feminine subject) this í is sub-subject and cad is the main predicate. (subject is X.)
It is a normal sentence, not a pseudo cleft. It does not already "contain" the anticipated answer (as above). The connection between Q and A is looser. Both are really separate sentences.

Oh this is fascinating. I'd read that passage in GnaG before but I think my eyes glazed over.

So you're saying that we should analyse these two almost identical questions quite differently:

Code: Select all

Cad                é                  X?           Y.
sub-predicate      sub-predicate      subject      predicate
---
Cad                  í                  X?            Y.
predicate            sub-subject        subject       (new sentence)

Can this distinction have implications for how the answer is phrased?
Or to put it more generally, how do we "know" about this distinction in the underlying analysis? - presumably it has implications in how the questions are understood or answers are phrased.

silmeth · **Joined:** Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm **Posts:** 276

Labhrás wrote:

Rosie_Oleary wrote:

Dia daoibh! I am wondering if any one can help me understand the difference between a subordinate subject and a subordinate predicate?

On https://www.braesicke.de/kopul5.htm#cadeiiad it says that both
Cé hé an bhean sin?
and
Cé hí an bhean sin?
can be correct depending on whether the é/í is a subordinate predicate or a subordinate subject.
I’m kind of confused about what this means and how it might change the meaning of the sentence depending on which it is?
I understand what a subpredicate/proleptic pronoun is (I think I got that term right), but now I’m kinda confused about how to know when something is a subordinate subject…
Thank you to anyone who can help!

Wh-questions have often an interesting structure in Irish:
The anticipated answer can be seen as the main predicate of the question sentence. As if it were part of the question sentence.
Because the answer is unknown it is referred to by "é".

Cad é X? Y.
This structure resembles pseudo-clefts like:
Is é X (ná) Y.
or pseudo-cleft rhetoric questions as:
Cad é X ná/ach Y?

In all three of them, X is subject, Y is predicate, é is sub-predicate. The word cad is kind of a sub-predicate, too.

But if there is the feminine pronoun í (in case of a feminine subject) this í is sub-subject and cad is the main predicate. (subject is X.)
It is a normal sentence, not a pseudo cleft. It does not already "contain" the anticipated answer (as above). The connection between Q and A is looser. Both are really separate sentences.

Again, I’d focus on cé hé vs cé hí in this analysis.

Cad historically is different, and in the oldest texts you’ll just see caidhe, caide, goide etc. and then cad é independently of gender, anywhere. Cad í is a more recent phenomenon (via reanalysis). Of course it’s valid to search for synchronic logic explaining how the reanalysis works, but you should keep in mind that this might be different from the cé case still due to phrases with invariable cad é still cling on even where they “don’t belong” via synchronic logic.

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1883

I must admit that I was a bit too uncritical here. The use in the GGBC (twice) has a somewhat too authoritative influence. Unfortunately, I can no longer find the source for the claim that "cé hé" is even used "preferably."
This is obviously not the case, at least for what is probably the most common feminine noun, bean.

On the contrary: í is even used with masculine nouns when referring to a woman. Cé hí an cailín? has already been mentioned, or:
Cé hí an strainséara siúd? (M. Ó Cadhain)

Séamus O'Neill · **Posted:** Mon 12 May 2025 6:32 pm

I found this in Fiche Blian ag Fás (the old edition, written in the old script):

Quote:

Seo ċuġam anall bean acu. —Canaṫaoḃ gur riṫis mar sin ó ċianaiḃ? ar sise. —Níl faic, arsa mise go cúṫail. —An ḃfuil ḟios agat cé hí mise?

I know that Muiris Ó Súilleabháin spent a while working as a garda in Galway, and the fluency of his Irish also came and went, so that might have an influence on his grammar, etc. Maybe in other dialects (i.e. Galway) this could be acceptable. There are certain words/phrases in the book that resemble Galway Irish more closely to Munster Irish (e.g. tada instead of pioc or faic), but it's hard to tell if this is indeed the author's ideolect, or instead is just a form of standardisation of the Irish found in the book.

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1589

And ó chiainibh should have a slender n...

Forum rules

subordinate predicate vs. subordinate subject

Who is online