We've had this debate over and over again on the forum, and even more so on the predecessor to this forum (which most of us left when it went commercial and became largely crap), but I'll make my more-or-less annual appeal for us to stop fighting over this issue. I will say, though, that this latest fight has been much politer than past ones have been (not really a fight, but a mild disagreement).

I've already mentioned that I think Seo Linn is fantastic, and what they've done has made the language even more popular than it was. More power to them! I'll also add my almost annual statement that anyone who has studied the process of language development learns that every language is in the process of change all the time, and nothing can stop it (the Académie Française tried, and failed miserably). If the speakers (native or not) cause change, it is often going to stick and purists will just have to live with it, whether they like it or not. And, after all, what is so pure about the current Gaeltacht versions of Irish? They all diverge significantly from past stages of the language, and the changes happened because people made them happen in their daily lives, and did not follow the "rules".

Also to be noted is that language changes often originate with young people who are playing with (or in some cases imperfectly learning) the language. This happens even with English, and you'll understand that if you think back on how many words have changed meaning just in the past few decades. Tell a teenager that something is "cool", "rad", or "bad" (in the sense of "good") and you will be dating yourself, even if they can't see the wrinkles on your face. Not all such changes stick, but an amazingly large number do.

In Ireland, the current Irish-speaking population is disproportionately young, since the trendiness of the language only kicked in a couple of decades ago and there were far fewer Gaelscoileanna in the past (and a lot of bad teaching in the regular schools). This is probably going to accelerate changes in the language, as new usages are coined and some things are imperfectly learned, but the bottom line is that it's going to happen. Lament it if you will, but Irish is in a far better state than many endangered languages, where the speakers are disproportionately old and are not passing the language along well enough for it to survive in the end. If a significant number of the kids in Ireland stay enthusiastic about the language, then there's a lot of hope for the future, and that's the reason that Seo Linn's covering of songs is great. Kids already know the songs, so they are drawn into the Irish versions more easily. And, by the way, Seo Linn has done original songs as well.

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

Well, they were learned in a completely different way. They were learned form parents and peers in a native speaking community of the language, where it had been passed down for generations. Unlike what is happening outside the Gaeltacht, where it really is just a case of learners learning it poorly and passing it on to more learners. It's very different from natural language change among native speakers in an unbroken tradition, which is essentially what leads it to be 'English in Irish drag'.





In 1972, there were 5 secondary Gaelscoils in Ireland. Sure, it's not as many as there are now, but given the fact that it's been 40+ years and an ever-increasing number, we should be seeing an increase in Irish use. But we're not, and we haven't, really. I think it's fairly safe to say that if there's been no real change over 40 years, there won't be much. And, again, that's not mentioning the quality of the Irish they have. TBH, if all that's left is Irish from the Gaelscoils, I probably would stop learning it.

I would also contest that Irish isn't in much of a better state at all. Native Irish is dying out. I have a native speaking friend from Carraroe (outside Bríd!) who is in his early 30s. He's a brother a couple years younger, and he laments at the difference of Irish between them, and the usage of it among his brother's friend group, even the ones all raised in the Gaeltacht. It's only gotten worse, too. The language really isn't being passed on. A similar situation is, I've read, happening in Hawai'i. However, some linguists there at least took a standard and said that what is being spoken by non-native learners isn't Hawai'ian, but a new "Neo Hawai'ian" language. Now they need to stress that in Ireland; I think it could go a long way to help people realize they aren't really speaking Irish.

And, yes, they are drawn to the Irish versions...but then they never branch out. They stick only with translations. That's my biggest issue, more than the translations themselves. How long does it take before there's no market for native material because people are only going to be interested in the novelty of reading/listening to a popular book/song in Irish, as opposed to learning the language and enjoy its own native traditions?

I know Seo Linn has done a few. I've been able to find 2 that aren't translations that are in Irish. And this is even after they crowdfunded an album/tour to promote Irish music. Though they did release a bunch of English songs in that period (and even more covers...).

I agree that the lack of an unbroken tradition is a shame, and of course I meant no disparagement of the dialects used in the Gaeltacht. I was just making a point about language change. Two of my grandparents were raised in the Mayo Gaeltacht speaking Irish at home, but even they used many English words which had crept into their dialect, so the change process is nothing new, and those hoping to preserve exactly what is used in the Gaeltacht right now are both engaging in a futile exercise and not really understanding what they are trying to preserve. It would be great if ithe Gaeltachts could grow again, but it is not going to happen (they have always been an artificial construct in modern times anyway).

My grandparents switched to English in school (over 100 years ago) and in later life, and rarely used Irish with their children in the US, so I've had to learn most of it all over again (I did have the benefit of hearing my grandmother speak it when I was little). They were just a stage in the loss of the language, when it was still firmly identified in the minds of most Irish people as the language of poorer, rural, less educated people, and the shame factor was instrumental in the loss. Now, however, there is the opposite effect, with some Irish people (and Irish in the US) actually being ashamed that they cannot speak Irish (or better Irish), and Seo Linn's music is a part of helping to address that.

I disagree strongly that most people outside of the Gaeltacht speak Irish poorly (I mean of the ones who have retained more than the cúpla focail and actually try to use it). Of course many make mistakes, but there are many who speak very well, and it's not as though grammar and syntax problems are missing among English speakers in the English speaking countries. I just see the constant harping about non-Gaeltacht Irish being something lesser as a waste of time, as well as being untrue and unfairly stigmatizing of people who are trying to enter into the language movement. All I said is that what will happen will happen, and I am personally encouraged about current developments, even knowing that Irish is undoubtedly never going to be the daily language of most people in Ireland again, no matter how widely or well it is taught, because English is a juggernaut which rolls over everything in its way.

I did not want to respond to you again, because I know from experience that this argument just goes on and on pointlessly, but I saw a couple of additional points I wanted to make. I've had my say now. I do think people react very emotionally in this area, sometimes without having studied how languages change (which I have studied in graduate school). I like to look at things as rationally as I can, and it's obvious that I am a "glass half-full" person anyway.

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

I know you didn't mean any disparagement on the dialects of the Gaeltacht, but I disagree with your point about language change. I have studied language change and linguistics, and I do realize that languages change constantly. But, it's pretty much always done among native speakers, raised in the speech community. 90% of the speakers of 'Neo-Irish' don't fit that bill; they're either not from the community or aren't raised by native speakers from the tradition themselves.

And there's a difference between loan words creeping in and what's happening in this 'Neo-Irish'. In fact, it's actually a quite ironic example. I know non-native speakers who have complained a lot about Béarlachas, which they usually translate as loan words. I overheard one person in Galway City specifically mention the word 'shower' (Connemara doesn't use cith, preferring mur for rainshower and, well, 'shower' for the kind you take). The ironic part was she then proceeded to say something like "Oh, beidh mé ag déanamh é" and say "Inseoidh am" when talking about whether Irish would survive. Both of those are, objectively, straight from English and really have no equivalent in Modern Irish. So, while they love to bitch about loan words, they have no problem using loan grammar and idioms, which are the things natives wouldn't do, while they're fine with loan words.



Yes, but unless Seo Linn (and I'm using them as an easy moniker for translators of songs and literature in general) actually starts creating their own material, all that it shows people is that Irish has no traditions outside of what it borrows from English. It basically further relegates Irish to a 'hobby language' for those who want to hear/read English language stuff in 'Neo-Irish'. The material that needs to be promoted most is the native stuff, created by natives/highly fluent speakers. I'd love to see more Joe Steve, or more Ó Conghaile, or more Ó Searcaigh, or more Titley, etc. But instead we see all the hype over An Hobad and Cluiche na Corónach instead.




I, obviously, disagree with that. Yes, they might speak the language fluidly, but do they truly speak it fluently (i.e. do they use native Irish structures, sounds, idioms, etc?). I would argue they don't, and this seems to be backed up by the linguistic research as well. One researcher found that Neo-Irish speakers use incorrect Irish pronunciation '21 and 66' percent of the time. Generally, these are features that - of course - don't exist in English. Instead, they just use the closest English equivilent. A good example was the 'native' speaker on Duolingo originally, pronouncing buachaill with a /k/. No native in the Gaeltacht would do this consistently like that, and therefore I wouldn't say it's good 'Irish'. Just like I wouldn't say someone who doesn't use /y/ for French <tu> is necessarily speaking good 'French'. They're using what once were Irish words, sure, but they're mapping it to English. Also, that study does hint that it suggests significant grammatical differences too, because one of the biggest mistakes was lenition, which is important.

They also use subclauses a lot less than natives, which one could argue means they're not as 'good', but that's more of a rhetorical judgement, but the author touches upon it as well. There's also evidence to suspect that many of them don't think in Irish, but think in English and just translate on the fly, again leading to things like inseoidh am, and níl aon duine foirfe.

If anything, you can surely call it a pidgin, or maybe even the beginnings of a creole. Thus 'Neo-Irish'. But it seems fairly clear to me that it's much more English like that Irish, outside of basic syntax and vocabulary.

And, truly, I have nothing against 'Neo-Irish'. I just think we need to acknowledge what it is: a new creole that isn't very much like the language that was spoken on the island, and still is spoken in the Gaeltachts. And we need to push people away from this. We shouldn't just accept it because "is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste". If something is wrong, and no native speaker would say it, we need to be told and it needs to be fixed. But people are too afraid to do that, so we get this new pidgin/creole.

But, as I've said, I'm all for people learning Irish -- I learned it myself as an American with no ties to the country -- but we need to move past this whole "Oh, I speak a good dialect because I'm Irish" and "My English sounds are enough because they came from my Irish dialect" and such, and actually push people to start sounding native-esque.

And, to bring it back to the original topic, we can't do that with translations where it's clear that it was translated almost directly from English (even if the words are different, it was still composed in English first). That is doubly true with books. And we can't let translations push out native materials as seems to be happening.


I know you said you didn't want to reply again, and I'll stop after this one too.

Clipped for brevity.

X 1,000,000!

So much in agreement with you on this! It's a shame that some cling so curmudgeonly to fears of change that the very joys are sucked out of life and the learning of a new language. It's true that all languages are living things and ever changing whether we may like it or not. It's good to have a handle on the rules and structure so that we may speak elegantly when situations call for it. But it is also good to know how to speak colloquially and naturally. A great deal of this natural speaking used throughout the world is caused by the "pollution" purists speak of when speakers of other languages intermingle in one way or another with a particular tongue. We do not live in a bubble. People are going to grow, change and pick up new words in their day to day lives. It has happened since the beginning of time and will continue to happen. So, we should just learn to live with it. Also, I agree that it's good that Seo Linn and others have reached audiences who otherwise might not have taken up and interest in the language at all. It's sad to see a language die because only the old folks speak it and the young have no interest.

Except that's not what I'm doing at all! Saying I'm clinging against the change that is occurring is saying like I'm mad at French learners pronouncing the <h>. It doesn't happen, and it isn't correct French (as far as I know; maybe there is some dialect that does pronounce it). And I would argue that the people who are learning don't speak Irish 'colloquially and naturally', because they just use directly translated English expressions; if it's not said by native speakers in the Gaeltacht, it's not natural. Unless, of course, we're gonna start arguing that all non-native English speakers speak as 'colloquially and naturally' as the natives.

And, again, I have no problem with language change from inside the community. I do have a problem with it when learners can't be assed to learn the proper language, and instead just translate everything directly from their target language, including sounds, idioms, and structure. At what point do we just go ahead and stop calling it Irish? Because I'd wager the "Neo-Irish" spoken in Dublin has a lot more in common with English than it does with the Irish spoken in the Gaeltachts (and studies seem to confirm this).

And if that's the only type of "Irish" that's ever left... Well, I'll never call it Irish and will likely never learn it again. Sorry I don't wanna learn "English in Irish drag" and would prefer to learn actual Irish as spoken by native speakers. And, again, how long will translations keep young people's attentions? I doubt it lasts forever, or, if it does, it eventually drives out all original material created in the language; I'd wager that's worse than not making young people 'interested' in the long run. Also, how many people learn a language just so they can read/listen (to) a translation of a book/song they already have access to in their native tongue? Like, I'd never deeply study Spanish so I could read a translations of Game of Thrones, or hear a translation of the latest pop song. It makes it, if anything, even more of a novelty. More original Irish media is what needs to be produced to sustain the language.

New single out from Seo Linn called Solas. I believe this is an original song from them.

Not to be that guy, but in fact such varieties exist: h aspiré (as well as the h muet of haut for some unfathomable reason) is generally pronounced in Cajun French. Of course, this is something I know only because I've made a special study of the dialect and the general point still stands. (A sounder example might be the use of the English r in French, which I'm pretty sure never happens; in Cajun, it's traditionally an alveolar trill like in Irish.)


This. Translations may have piqued my interest in a language before, but it's always been original content which has sustained me. One of the reasons I know Irish better than Welsh is that I haven't yet found any Welsh-language authors who I like as much as Liam Ó Flathartaigh or Flann O'Brian. (An béal bocht was a real turning point for me in my study of the language.) And I know Punjabi better than Hindi because I like bhangra more than Bollywood (even though it's easier to find covers of pop songs in Hindi).

I feel like learners are attracted to translations in Irish for the lack of anything better and that the Irish-language community is letting them down in this respect. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what most of us can do about that except support original context when we do find it.