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PostPosted: Wed 25 May 2016 12:22 pm 
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Dia daoibh,

Was just learning about the aonad brí cinnte there.

Using Grammadach gan stró and it gives the example " muintir cHathair Chorcaí"

So would "chun mHuintir cHathair cHorcaí a shásamh" be correct? I capatalised the "h" as that's the bit im wondering about.

Also the whole gist of the aonad brí and foirm ainmnigh as i took from the book is as follows, Chorcaí is in ginideach as it is an ainmfhocal cinnte at the end of an aonad brí. Muintir and cathair have a "h" as "chun" is at the start so that means everything between chun and chorcaí takes a "h" instead of being put into the ginideach? Would i be right?

I probably could have asked all this better but im finding it a tricky concept to get my head around

GRMA


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PostPosted: Wed 25 May 2016 1:10 pm 
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Cliathach wrote:
Dia daoibh,

Was just learning about the aonad brí cinnte there.

Using Grammadach gan stró and it gives the example " muintir cHathair Chorcaí"

So would "chun mHuintir cHathair cHorcaí a shásamh" be correct? I capatalised the "h" as that's the bit im wondering about.

No, for two reasons:
1) no lenition following chun regardless what follows.
Chun isn't a noun anymore. So it is different to other constructions with real nouns,
e.g. drochnósanna mhunitir Chathair Chorcaí = the bad manners of Cork City inhabitants ;)
2) munitir isn't really in genitive relation here
It is
chun [muintir Chathair Chorcaí a shásamh]
chun [X a VN],
A noun is usually in nominative/accusative case if followed by "a" and verbal noun, even if the whole phrase is ruled by genitive prepositions, at least in Standard Irish.
Cliathach wrote:
Also the whole gist of the aonad brí and foirm ainmnigh as i took from the book is as follows, Chorcaí is in ginideach as it is an ainmfhocal cinnte at the end of an aonad brí. Muintir and cathair have a "h" as "chun" is at the start so that means everything between chun and chorcaí takes a "h" instead of being put into the ginideach? Would i be right?

Yes, every noun in a row between noun A and noun Y is lenited in case noun Z is definite and all nouns from B to Z build a "meaning unit".
e.g. drochnósanna pháistí mhuintir bhruachbhailte Chathair Chorcaí = the bad manners of the children of Cork City suburbs inhabitants


Disclaimer: I know nothing about the children of Cork suburbs and their manners. Just exempli gratia, no offence intended :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon 30 May 2016 11:17 am 
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Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 12:57 pm
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Location: An Chathair Bhreá
Go raibh maith agat a Labhráis :good:

So would I be right in saying the following;

Ag moladh foirne éigin

But

Ag moladh fhoireann Chill Dara

Ag moladh múinteoirí scoile

But

Ag moladh mhúinteoirí na scoile

Ag ól cupán tae

But

Ag ól chupán tae Chaoimhín

Ag moladh mhac cliste Pheadair

But

Ag moladh iníon chliste Pheadair

Sorry about the list, just want to make sure I have the grasp of this as it has been giving me trouble

GRMA


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PostPosted: Mon 30 May 2016 5:40 pm 
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Cliathach wrote:
Go raibh maith agat a Labhráis :good:

So would I be right in saying the following;

Ag moladh foirne éigin
But
Ag moladh fhoireann Chill Dara

Ag moladh múinteoirí scoile
But
Ag moladh mhúinteoirí na scoile

Ag ól cupán tae
But
Ag ól chupán tae Chaoimhín

Ag moladh mhac cliste Pheadair
But
Ag moladh iníon chliste Pheadair


Looks good to me. :good:


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PostPosted: Tue 31 May 2016 2:31 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Cliathach wrote:
No, for two reasons:
1) no lenition following chun regardless what follows.


Hmm.
:reading:
I took a look in this book and according to its rules a noun in "aonad brí cinnte" should really be lenited following "chun". :?:

I searched in Corpas na h̹Éireann and found very few examples of lenition after chun at all (chun chinn, chun chuimhne, chun bh... (I forgot), chun phléisiúir, all without "aonad brí") and some place names (chun Bhaile Átha Cliath, chun Dhún Chaoin, chun Chorcaigh).
Less than 10 out of 4800 examples of native speakers-
There are only few examples of "aonaid bhrí" but all of them without lenition, e.g. chun Coláiste Mhaigh Nuad

Is dála an scéil:
There's also a rule in that book that nouns in "aonad brí éiginnte" should never be lenited (following feminine nouns).
:dhera:


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