Another very simple question

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1979

Errigal wrote:

Read my post again, Labhrás. You didn't quote what I said about "...do your work/your work (must be) done " being a bad example - for the very same reason you say it doesn't make much sense. I gave the example "do theach a phéinteáil" to make it clearer, but let's stick to "d'obair" (do chuid oibre?):
"Your work must be destroyed" - presumably someone other than yourself will destroy your work (and 'saothar' would be more suitable than 'obair'): 'Caithfear d'obair/do shaothar a scriosadh.' And franc91's sentence is out of context, which doesn't help.
While the autonomous form may be analogous to "man/on", it's not identical in every way. Anyway, the point of my first post was that, grammatically, there was nothing wrong with 'Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh' (however unnatural or odd it looks).

Yes, grammatically there's nothing wrong with "Caithfear d'obair a dhéanamh". But semantically it is odd - beyond a very restricted context. That's what I tried to say.
Gramatically the pitfall is to regard "caithfear" as a passive like "must be (done)" which it isn't.
"Caithfear do theach a phéinteáil" is much more likely to be used, even more so "Caithfear do shaothar a scriosadh".

franc 91 · **Posted:** Tue 23 Feb 2016 8:26 am

If - caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh - is so awkward and unnatural, which expression would be preferable (in Munster Irish, of course) ?

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1979

franc 91 wrote:

If - caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh - is so awkward and unnatural, which expression would be preferable (in Munster Irish, of course) ?

Scríobh mé:

Labhrás wrote:

Déarfainn:
Ní foláir t'obair a dhéanamh, ní mór t'obair a dhéanamh, is éigean t'obair a dhéanamh, is gá t'obair a dhéanamh, tá t'obair le déanamh,

I don't know which of them are used in Munster.

franc 91 · **Posted:** Tue 23 Feb 2016 1:35 pm

Go raibh maith agat.

Domhnaillín Breac · **Joined:** Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm **Posts:** 171

So am I the only one who learned to say do chuid oibre in this instance?

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

franc 91 wrote:

If - caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh - is so awkward and unnatural, which expression would be preferable (in Munster Irish, of course) ?

Franc, are you sure it wasn't caithfir t(h)'obair [do chuid oibre] a dhéanamh

the -(a)ir termination is used as the 2nd person singular ending for the present indicative and simple future; e.g. t(h)áir 'you are', ná fuilir 'aren't you', raghair 'you will go', Gheobhair 'you will get' etc....

This would alleviate a lot of confusion here!

As Labhras and Lon dubh have already mentioned, do > t(h)' before vowels. The same form was used in Old Irish.

Labhrás wrote:

franc 91 wrote:

If - caithfear t'obair a dhéanamh - is so awkward and unnatural, which expression would be preferable (in Munster Irish, of course) ?

Scríobh mé:

Labhrás wrote:

Déarfainn:
Ní foláir t'obair a dhéanamh, ní mór t'obair a dhéanamh, is éigean t'obair a dhéanamh, is gá t'obair a dhéanamh, tá t'obair le déanamh,

I don't know which of them are used in Munster.

These can also be used in Munster Irish, except the prepositional pronouns would not be dropped and (do)b'éigean duit would be used instead of is éigean.

Cian

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

Quote:

So am I the only one who learned to say do chuid oibre in this instance?

That's traditionally correct and what I'd say myself, but younger speakers will say "t'obair".

Quote:

Ní foláir t'obair a dhéanamh, ní mór t'obair a dhéanamh, is éigean t'obair a dhéanamh, is gá t'obair a dhéanamh, tá t'obair le déanamh,

I don't know which of them are used in Munster.

All of them are, but they all have different meanings.

Caithfir do chuid oibre a dhéanamh is grand normal Munser Irish, but it would mean "You have to do your work".

"Your work must be done" would be more Caithfidh do chuid oibre bheith déanta.

Errigal · **Joined:** Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm **Posts:** 716

An Lon Dubh wrote:

"Your work must be done" would be more Caithfidh do chuid oibre bheith déanta.

That to me suggests the state, i.e. "ready, complete", rather than the action, and would be fine in a sentence like this:
Your work must be done by Monday - Caithfidh do chuid oibre bheith déanta faoin Luan.

In the context provided by franc91, though, I'd say it's the action ('doing') rather than the state ('having been done') that's being referred to.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

True Errigal.

Franc 91, would you mind putting a sentence or two of context around it, is it like "even though you don't feel like it, your work must be done".

This probably seems daft to you, but with some context a translation will be easily obtained, then I can explain the confusion over the autonomous e.t.c.

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