djwebb2021 wrote:
Ade wrote:
I think
clann in a phrase like
clann agus Éire is somewhat open ended. It's up to the person getting the tattoo to determine whose offspring are in question. It's not necessary to assume
clann refers to his/her own offspring rather than those of some ancestor (as in
Clann Uí Fhlatharta).
I also think it's a bit too restrictive to translate it as strictly "offspring" in a case like this. From the earliest writings in Irish you get the word
clann with a meaning more similar to "family group", "kin", or indeed, the English loanword "clan". See for example
29d6 from the Würzburg glosses,
.i. hóbói mochland et mochenéel "i.e. since my clan and my kindred came into being", or 27a from Dioghluim Dána,
fearr beagán cloinne ná clann "a single child can be better than a large family".
My point in bringing up either of the two of these examples here is not to suggest that the translation "offspring" is impossible in either case, but simply that "clan" and "family" were chosen as preferable translations based on the context. In a similar way, I think the context of
clann agus Éire is quite clearly one which demands the understanding "family and Ireland" rather than "offspring and Ireland".
No, modern Irish is the key to the meaning, and no native speaker would understand "clann agus Éire". I would suggest
feaimilí for "family".
Dioghluim Dána is Early Modern Irish, but I suspect you are only interested in Irish from the last century or so. Regardless, such uses of the term have never ceased to be acceptable.
Yes, native speakers would absolutely understand what was meant by "clann agus Éire" in the context of a tattoo such as this. As for whether a native speaker would be inclined to get a tattoo like this themselves, perhaps not, though I'd never say "never". I don't know if any of this matters, though, as we were asked to translate what is very clearly an English-language sentiment, based on the English-language concept of the nuclear family unit, into Irish.
Clann is one of a number of options we explained to OP, and we were very clear as to its meaning. If they still want to tattoo it on themselves in the knowledge that it's not a perfect translation for "family", it's not because they've been misled here. Nor have we given them a translation which is unintelligible to native Irish speakers, just one that such speakers may not think is particularly native sounding, primarily because it's not a common sentiment in Irish.
For the record, I think if you want to use a word which is a direct analogue for "family", then
feaimilí is a fine option, though I wouldn't have suggested it myself because I think suggesting a translation which clearly utilises a borrowing from English is missing the point of the request for an Irish translation. I also suspect it's just as unlikely a native speaker would tattoo it on themselves as
clann agus Éire. Nevertheless, if OP is happy with the béarlachas nature of it, then
feaimilí is perfectly sufficient. So too, however, is
clann so long as OP understands this would be understood as meaning "children/descendants and Ireland".