we simply know what native Irish sounds like - there are pronunciation features that don't exist in any dialect... but that exist in English. When every sound or almost is being replaced by the closest English sound, obviously the speaker is not a native one. You would hear the difference too. You don't need to be a native speaker to hear that (do you need to be a native Spanish speaker, to recognize that someone speaks Spanish with an English accent?)

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

You're confusing nationality with linguistic ability, Faber. The status of Irish people born in the Galltacht is parallel to that of children of immigrants to the US or Australia from non-English-speaking countries. It is not their native language and how proficient they become depends on many factors, including how proficient their parents were, how early they started, and how much of the "new" language is spoken in their community.

Sometimes immigrant children pick up faultless native-levels in their new language but sometimes they retain the accent of their parents language in the new language for life. In Gumbi's case, he has acquired the proper native phonemic distinctions. The evidence is that Eoin did not. He speaks Irish with an intermittent English accent - just like immigrant children that switch to English too late. He may well be working to fix his pronunciation himself, I don't know.

I am merely making an objective observation that some of those mistakes are present in some of Eoin's recordings. The definition of "native" may be slippery, but the phonetic elements are not. Those mistakes will also be recognisable to anyone else who is proficient enough to recognise the differences between native Gaeltacht Irish and anglicized Galltacht Irish. They are not mistakes that I would recommend any beginner be exposed to.

In that respect the materials are not "good" materials. That situation could be remedied by redoing the recordings or better still getting a Gaeltacht speaker to do them instead.

Maidir leis an nglao teileafóin, ná bí ag tabhairt mo dhúshlán rud a dhéanamh nach mbeifeá féin in ann a dhéanamh agus gan ach cupla focal agat fós. I wouldn't be challenging people to do things you yourself couldn't do when you've only just started learning the language.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Brendan:

I wouldn't dare think of calling the guy up and challenging him. But, I am not the one judging his accent, linguistic ability, critiquing him or anything else. I just think that maybe Irish is expanding beyond what you and Lughaidh think it is (whether that's a good or bad thing). Imagine the changes that happened in English 50 years prior to Shakespeare. It morphed from being quite similar to Dutch into a language that incorporated about 50% new French/Latin words that would have been pretty much unreadable to people in the 50 years prior. Maybe Irish is evolving in the same sort of way. I do not know.

I do know however that it is surviving in part by growing outside of the Gaelteacht by families who are committed to seeing that the attrition stops. It is being studied by people like you and me from Australia to Texas and beyond. I wrote what I did because I feel that the comments on this matter could be more constructive to the learning of the language. I realize this is an "Irish Learners' Forum", and I feel that the comments of Redwolf and Cheerio are positive and encouraging. I think people who come to this site should be ENCOURAGED rather than discouraged to pursue their study of something that interests them.

I feel that some learners who might read these posts might just be inclined to say, "Well...what the heck...I might as well give up before I start to try to learn this language". I know that's how I often feel after reading Lughaidh's posts. That is not a positive thing. It is not positive for the site. It is not positive for the learners. Nor is it positive for the language. I realize I may be way off base and I could be totally wrong, but that is my opinion. I appreciate the various views but I think when one feels they must point out the deficiencies of certain learning materials, it might be a good idea to offer a positive alternative so the reader can take action and pursue what may be their life long dream.

I am old enough now (almost 56) that I realize how little I know, and I have come to understand how powerful words can be. They can be used to build up or they can be used to break down. I hope that my comments here will be seen in the positive light in which they are written. It is my hope that each of us here can progress to have better Irish than we do today. That is the goal of what I have said.

Thanks again for creating this forum in which we/I might express these thoughts. I won't comment further as I do not enjoy argument. It is too much like work for a retired lawyer.

With all my respect and kindness, Féabar

It is all very well to be "positive", Faber, but sometimes "positive" in an erroneous direction works in the negative. Contrary to the opinions expressed by Redwolf and Cheerio, Gaeltacht Irish isn't dead yet and it could be revived if people promoted it properly instead of trying to substitute this dumbed down English-Irish hybrid.

If you present people with anglicized pronunciation in a text like this, then that is all they can possibly learn. You deprive them of an opportunity.

If you present them with traditional Gaeltacht pronunciation, then those with an aptitude for languages will be able to imitate and learn the proper pronunciation, and those less adept will fudge along as best they can and might end up only anglicizing the pronunciation for themselves or they might end up somewhere in between but at least you will have shown them a good example to aim for.

By only presenting the anglicized pronunciation you remove the opportunity for the learner to adopt the traditional phonemes. Intentional or not, this is an unfortunate result.

It is all very well to say we shouldn't be critical but if we can't point people towards a better path then we are guilty of letting the hybrid language swamp the natural language. All we are saying is don't dismiss the Gaeltacht Irish as dead when it is not. Supporting natural Gaeltacht Irish won't kill the language as a whole only strengthen it but promoting the artificial Galltacht hybrid undermines and erodes the remaining natural Irish and threatens it at a juncture when we actually have a good opportunity to turn things around and revive the natural language and develop that instead of the hybrid.

I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to point learners to better learning materials and suggest ways to improve courses that fulfil a goal that will save the best parts of the language. If we stay silent then people will happily be led down the garden path only to be disappointed later.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

While I agree that people should learn Irish pronunciation from native speakers from the Gaeltachtaí, it is still better to learn urban Irish than no Irish at all. As learners get more proficient they will see the differences in pronunciation.

Faber has done exceptionally well. He has much more than just a few words of Irish. He has come such a long way in a very short time. And he is learning a dialect (ulster). He was in Donegal this year living with native speakers. There is no better dialect for a learner because it is untainted by the Caighdeán.

Come on guys agree to differ.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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to me, urban Irish is no Irish at all . What isn't native Irish ie. Gaeltacht Irish, is not Irish, it better said, it's bad Irish. I mean, the Irish spoken by learners isn't a model to follow since they are learners so they don't master the language...



braitheann sé...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

In the same way that Hibernian English is no English at all, you mean?

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.

Interesting discussion. Féabar, I know you might be seeing Breandán's/Lughaidh's comments in a negative light, but I feel a lot of this has to do with the seeming abruptness of reading something as opposed to having an actual conversation with someone face to face. It is my opinion that Breandán's feeling regarding this situation boil down to simply this: that he feels that learning Irish from a non-native speaker is not "the best way forward" as it were. I'm pretty much in agreement with him in this regard. I don't feel learning anglicised Irish is productive when there are richer sources to choose from. The Gaeltachtaí are very much still alive. I mean this as a general statement, though. If someone would like to learn urban Irish, that's fine. But I don't think this should be accepted as a standard, not while we have better resources available to us.

I think he, personally, doesn't regard it as "true Irish" - which I think is fine. Some posh Englishmen/women might feel the same way about the way we speak English. As for myself, I disagree with his considering it as "bad Irish". Sure, it's likely less rich, but that doesn't make it "bad". It's just the way it has progressed.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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