While Gittan may have come from Irish Bríghid, that does not mean that it was used as a given name among the Irish. It certainly didn't last long if it was used.

However, from a quick search online it seems that supposed forms of Gittan and Bríd exist in many other European languages (including many non-Celtic and non-Germanic ones):

http://www.behindthename.com/name/gittan :


The possible existence of all these pan-European forms which are supposedly related to Bríd suggests to me that they may have been part of a greater Indo-European consciousness. Which further indicates that Gittan (from Brigatta) was a Germanic development, rather than being influenced from Irish. Otherwise if the name Bríd was to stretch as far East as Latvia etc ... it would suggest that the Cult of Bríd must have been much more popular than previously thought.

That's just my opinion of course!

However, these different forms seem to be based on the premise that because it looks like some other name in some other language it means that these forms are related; if that is the case, then that is not necessarily correct.

A different, more plausible etymology (in my opinion) for Brigatta and thus for Gittan is provided here:

http://www.behindthename.com/name/birgitta :


@Centurion030, if your aim was to use an Irish name for your character, there is nothing peculiarly Irish about Gittan or Nora. If you wanted to find out if the names Gittan and Nora existed in Ireland; Gittan, while it is impossible to know for definite, it is highly unlikely-definitely not lately. The given name Nora does exist and was ubiquitous up until about 50 years ago.

However, be careful with the use of double-barrel names. While they have become popular nowadays in Ireland, i.e. John Paul, Elly May etc ... . Traditionally speaking and still in some Irish speaking areas (especially common in Conamara), double-barrel given-names denote lineage, usually patriarchal. However, if the mother's line was more well known then the mother's could be used as well.

i.e.,

Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé (Dainín, stands for father's name)

his son would then be known as Daithí Maidhc Dainíon Ó Sé etc....

Some Gaeltacht families are able to trace back their lineage 200 years or more using this practice alone.

If there doesn't need to be an Irish basis or usage for the name then there is nothing wrong with Gittan-Nora or any other name you desire. This story is obviously fiction and with that comes a lot of poetic licence.



Linguists tracing Ciotóg from Aquitanian is highly speculative.



Classical Irish is just a standardised form of Middle and Early Modern Irish used by the learned Bards for the production of poetry. Generally, people spoke caint na ndaoine 'language of the people', which would have been a richer, more archaic version (i.e. dative single and plural forms, dual form etc ...) of what is spoken today.

Oops, crossed with an Lon Dubh for the last point.

Cian

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Ade and An Cionnfhaolach,

I do very much appreciate the help and historical background you have given me. While the constraints of the first book prevent me from anywhere fully describing Gittan's background, what I can do is keep on asking questions regarding how a modern Irish woman would respond in conversation during her appearances in the current story. As has been stated earlier, a great many Irish are bi-lingual.

And though the story is indeed fiction and poetic license can be taken, I do want the character to not be a stereotype. From what I had done in researching the name, I had looked at Gaelic (Irish) names for women and combined the two.

What I can also do, with help from you, is figure out a timeframe when her ancestors did arrive and how her native language could still be Irish even if the initial people group that arrived was small. She may very well be named after an initial ancestor and have a fascinating history of how they arrived, thrived, and maintained part of their culture. And, after this book, I want more of her character to develop and come into her own. After all, she is Lady Glinda's representative during her absence. So, she has a tremendous amount of responsibility.

Most respectfully,

James

ask away!



Yes, I read earlier that you wanted a date her leaving Ireland circa early 1900s. Census records indicate that most Irish people were bilingual in the early 1900. Except for Dublin, that was nearly all English speaking.



I appreciate that you don't want to make a stereotype out of her. You'll find a lot of shite online because of people doing exactly that; it's probably likely that the site that told you Nora and Gittan were Irish (Gaelic) names is a good example of it.



I don't really know anything about the Wizard of Oz, so I wouldn't really understand the whole context of the timeline in its panoramic sense. Since you didn't divulge her history in the other novels, it can be whenever it suits you really. Though, taking Lon Dubh's and Ade's advice into account, the Irish language she spoke really depends on when she left Ireland. Having her leaving in 1900s onwards would make it much easier for us to translate English phrases into Irish (if you chose to use them) and compare cultural customs etc...

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Taking into account what An Cionnfhaolach and Lon Dubh have said about Classical Irish, there's really no reason you couldn't have her leaving in the middle of the 19th century. However, any translation into the Irish language you may want would have to be into one of the regional dialects, and not the modern standard of Irish. Fortunately there are many users on here who can do that. Remember, though, if you do want those types of translations, you should pick one dialectal variant and stick with it.

As for what you seem more interested in, that being an Irish, or Hiberno-English way of saying something already written in English, feel free to send anything else on and I'll help out as much as I can.

As an aside, to An Cionnfhaolach and Lon Dubh, regarding Classical Irish. Thanks for correcting me. It's not my particular area of interest, so it's good to be informed. I had always been lead to believe that Classical Irish was something of a literary standard which emerged largely from one poetic family of writers, but was itself based on a widely spoken standard, or perhaps a dialect separate from those which have survived into the modern day. That is, putting poetry aside, taking a piece of prose in Classical Irish, that you could assume the language used in it was itself representative of, or had developed from a spoken standard or dialect. I am aware that certain consonants would have had to be sounded out in poetry and such for the sake of rhyme or metrics, even though in spoken Irish of the time it's likely they would have become softer or silent, but I put that down to standardised writing systems taking time to catch up with spoken language development, as is a fairly common occurrence. Not having studied it specifically in any great detail, it completely slipped over my head that the modern dialects coexisted with it in an archaic form, rather than developing from it. Thanks again.

Ade and An Cionnfhaolach,

I am deeply touched by your help.

Here is what I can do for a quick backstory: her ancestors left Ireland in the middle of the 19th Century. I am open to what area. She was born in 1890 and has remained a 20-something due to the anti-aging spell (From the Baum books) Would this place her dialect in the modern era? If so, then I can start having phrases posted to be reviewed for correctness.

Already thinking of the chapter in Book II where she visits the village she was born in and has been away for so many years-and then I can go into much greater detail.

Many, many thanks for taking your time to listen to me.

Most respectfully,

James

Still thinking you need to rethink her name. If her ancestors were from Ireland, "Gittan" would be a highly unlikely name for her to have. It's Scandinavian, with only tenuous (at best) links to Ireland. Why not just have her be "Nóra" which does have solid Irish links? Or perhaps "Bríd Nóra," if you truly want to have her have a double-barreled name.

I really have a hard time accepting that someone named "Gittan-Nora" is from a 19th Century Irish family.

Redwolf

Understood.

I think I have found a solution. Ozma of Oz has Dorothy being swept overboard on a ship headed to Australia, circa 1907. I have looked at Swedish and Irish immigration during that time to Australia. The same storm resulted in a small ship of Irish and Swedes being brought over to Australia to go aground somewhere in the Mikfets area. She has mixed Swede (Father) and Irish (mother). Name taken from her father's mother's name and her mother's name.

Best,

James

For that to work Gittan-Nora would have had to been conceived en route to Australia or in Australia. If that is the case, I don't know how meaningful her trip to Ireland would be, which you said you wanted to incorporate into the story in a previous post.

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En route to Australia,

Her ancestors/mother/mother's family were Irish. The survivors would have eventually made their way to Quadling Country and settled there permamently. So she has Irish ancestry, and her mother and the Irish people around her would have taught her their language and culture. I don't think I ever mentioned that SHE was from Ireland. Just that were she was from, Irish was spoken.

Respectfully,

James

It might be easier to suggest that she got the suffix "Gittan" as a nickname whilst in Oz, from someone of Nordic ancestry, and that her birth name was simply Nóra. Perhaps she even got it as a child, when she was so young that she didn't realise it wasn't an Irish name. That would explain away any time in previous books you might have suggested it was Irish in origin.

It would also clear up this mixed ancestry issue you're trying to work in. The issue is when two people of different backgrounds come together they tend to either settle on using (and eventually bringing children up speaking) a shared second language, or alternatively, if one speaks a very popular language like English, and the other speaks it as a second language, that might be adopted.

In this case, if you have an ancestor speaking Irish, and another speaking Swedish, the likelihood is that together they would have communicated via a widely spoken local language. English, French, German, all would have been good candidates in the mid 1800s. But the liklihood that they would have settled on Irish, and hence their child would have spoken it, especially if they were emigrating, is very slim.