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 Post subject: the small woman's name
PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 2:49 pm 
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dia daoibh aríst.

Bhí mé ag léamh Basic Irish le Nancy Stenson agus déir sí nach úsáideann cainteoirí gaeilge "genitive feminie adjectives or just use the common case". Though she does you still see it in writing.

So does this mean I would say "ainm an bhean bheag" as opposed to "ainm na mná bige"?


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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 3:24 pm 
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Cliathach wrote:
Bhí mé ag léamh Basic Irish le Nancy Stenson agus déir sí nach úsáideann cainteoirí gaeilge "genitive feminie adjectives or just use the common case". Though she does you still see it in writing.

So does this mean I would say "ainm an bhean bheag" as opposed to "ainm na mná bige"?

I think she's suggesting "ainm na mná bheag", avoiding the genitive adjective but keeping the genitive noun.

It's page 171 if anyone else is able to take a look at it.

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 3:44 pm 
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Mick wrote:
Cliathach wrote:
Bhí mé ag léamh Basic Irish le Nancy Stenson agus déir sí nach úsáideann cainteoirí gaeilge "genitive feminie adjectives or just use the common case". Though she does you still see it in writing.

So does this mean I would say "ainm an bhean bheag" as opposed to "ainm na mná bige"?

I think she's suggesting "ainm na mná bheag", avoiding the genitive adjective but keeping the genitive noun.

It's page 171 if anyone else is able to take a look at it.



That's how I took it as well, Mick. My guess is they use it in (formal) writing, but not so much in speech.


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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 6:25 pm 
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Note: Native speakers rarely use adjectives in the genitive at all. (see below)

Outside of common nouns like beag, mór, bán, use of an adjective basically switches off the genitive, so

an bhean shalach

rather than

na mná salaí

Use of the plural form of adjectives can be a bit hit or miss as well.

This is well established, for instance Cín Lae Amhlaoibh written in the 19th century has the author dropping genitive and plural forms
of the adjective quite frequently. Polysyllabic adjectives are essentially never in the genitive for either gender and keep in mind that
the adjective being undeclined tends to cause the noun to be as well.

I know native speakers who would say:

ag pógadh na mná

but

ag pógadh an bhean rua

In fact, this would be the usage of the majority. Although I'd really recommend listening to a good long program on TG4 and you'll see that sentences
are structure in such a way that adjectives never wind up in the genitive. Like:

Bhí bean rua ann go raibh cónaí uirthi ar an bhFeothanach, agus chonac féin Séamas ag pógadh na mná san.

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 7:57 pm 
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Go raibh maith agat. Agus cathain a bheidh do leabharsa ar fáil? :reading: :good:

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 9:58 pm 
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I also read that native speakers often don't use the genitive in such cases.
In Donegal, they'd say "ainm an fhear bheag" and "ainm an bhean bheag".
But older speakers (whose parents were monoglots and who learnt English at school) would use the old system, in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed 01 Apr 2015 10:39 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
I also read that native speakers often don't use the genitive in such cases.
In Donegal, they'd say "ainm an fhear bheag" and "ainm an bhean bheag".
But older speakers (whose parents were monoglots and who learnt English at school) would use the old system, in my opinion.

That's interesting.

Is ait an scéal mar atá sé i gCúige Mumhan. Tá an tuiseal tabharthach ag cuid mhór desna seanadaoine, mar shampla "don Tráigh bháin", "ag an mbuin", "don mhnaoi bhig", "cuid desna leabhraibh", ach is annamh a chloisfeá an aidiacht ins an tuiseal ginideach uatha, go háirithe dá mba rud é gur aidiacht ilsiollach atá i gceist, nós seanbhunaithe 'sea é atá le feiscint i leabhraibh le daoine gan Bhéarla a bhí ina mbeathaidh i rith na naoú haoise déag.

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PostPosted: Mon 13 Apr 2015 9:08 am 
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an-spéisiúil lads, go raibh míle maith agaibh


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PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2015 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
you'll see that sentences
are structure in such a way that adjectives never wind up in the genitive.


This is a good example where observation of the living language throws up possible complexities not at first obvious (such as assuming the loss of declination in the genitive means by default, a loss of 'texture')

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2015 3:26 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
But older speakers (whose parents were monoglots and who learnt English at school) would use the old system, in my opinion.

Not necessarily. Written forms are often highly conservative, even when the spoken language has long since moved on to something else.

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