Just a few historical questions -was there ever a /R'/ vs /r'/ distinction and when did it die out (probably nobody knows) and when did the /R/ vs. /r/ distinction fall out of fashion and was it ever used in Munster?

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

(for anybody reading /r'/ is the usual r-sound at the end of leabhair, i.e. slender. /R'/ was a longer lasting rolled version of slender r, written with a double r, i.e. girrfhiadh, the old spelling of giorria hare.)

/R'/ and /r'/ used to be distinguished in Old Irish and Classical Irish. There are some comment from Bards attending the schools that they had to start learning how to pronounce /R'/ correctly around 1500, which means it probably started to die out then.

It would have existed in Munster a while ago, but probably died out there first.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Thanks for explaining that. Interestingly Maidhc Dháith often used to pronounce girrfhiadh (giorria) with a short "r", so it sounded like "giré" /g're:/.



That's interesting! Kinda like how everyone now has to struggle with learning the existing Irish "r"s

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

But what /R'/ like exactly? Like a Czech r?

Why would /r/ and /R/ be hard to pronounce?

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

This one I presume

Is /R'/ anywhere near the Spanish rolled r?

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/R/ would be but you'd expect velarisation

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Yeah it's the same in Kerry. Dialectal spelling giorrae/giorae.


Jaysus, the cheek! The Gael never struggles!

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

My understanding is basically that /r/ is a tapped r and /R/ was/is a rolled r.

The broad and slender versions, i.e. /R/ and /R'/ and /r/ and /r'/ (' just means slender for anyone reading), were distinguished by either raising the front of the tongue (slender) or the back of the tongue (broad) while making the roll or tap. Just like most slender/broad consonants today.

I'll post another post on the R's in a wee while so that hopefully there will be a full explanation of them!

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

/R'/ would have to be very tensely articulated I would say

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Still on for the R-guide?

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___