How much of the 'modernization' was the use of real idiom from the Gaeltacht and how much was the result of having a bad grasp of the language?

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I would say that 30% was a genuine effort by native speakers to clean up the language for a modern world ie getting rid of superfluous dh's and gh's (there were very few Irish-language typewriters then and long before computers). The other 70% was the work of all those 'placemen' who flooded into the Irish Civil Service in the late fifties and early sixties (the beginning of State corruption and cronyism (though we didn't know it then). Most of these were the relatives or friends of TDs and senior civil servants who had the 'cúpla fochail'. I had reason at that time to deal with the Dáil Translation Office on a daily basis and was often horrified by their efforts. The result was the death of the sean-cló and the introduction of thousands of Anglisized words and expressions into the language - this continues to the present day. I now look at official announcements and some of the time have no idea what they are talking about. (I feel better for getting that off my chest!)

On your original subject a Jaybee - you might like to look at www.mythicalireland.com under Astronomy. I am very suspicious of any subject under the 'Celtic' lable but have always found this site to be very inquiring and generally quite sensible.

It sounds like a sort of a silent coup and part of a broad stroke of rottenness, from cultural attacks (the Language Freedom Movement) to corruption (Fianna Fáil crony capitalism) and identify modification (Stickies and their ilk taking over RTÉ) which have all helped in smaller and bigger ways to undermine shared identity and fracture and damage the country's image of itself.

I saw that site before when I was looking for information on the old 'tree-alphabet' (or rather memory aid, as it seems to be better termed). It was there I saw that article I mentioned about the lack of work done on manuscripts containing astrological material. I would be, like yourself, skeptical of such sites; however, that much material has not been properly studied and contexualised is a shame

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Oh, here is the article: http://cura.free.fr/xv/11ellis1.html

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Well, as that Lord Castlereagh (the one who lost the American "colonies" once said "If you want to roast an Irishman you will have no difficulty finding another Irishman to turn the spit".

As for the corruption of the Republic, surely that started in 1937 with the new Constitution of deValera. This document was highly influenced and controlled by Archbishop John McQuaid and deleted all acceptance of the Protestant contribution in the fight for
freedom and legal liberties on divorce etc. It still makes me cringe that this man had to be consulted on all new Laws and Acts before they could be discussed in the Dáil (Think of the Mother and Child Scheme). I assume that this was the price deValera had to pay to have his Stay of Excommunication lifted but it was an awful price for Irish democracy. We must also remember the corruptive behaviour of Opus Dei and Maria Duce in Irish life.

I've read the article you mention - very interesting but I am surprised that it didn't mention Diciúl.

I fear that this particular thread is going off beam, so I will end it here.

Brian

It's very interesting actually.

What do you mean by "the use of language", Murchadh?



I don't understand this. Could you explain?

The problem is a great many of those dh's and gh's were far from superfluous. In many dialects and sub-dialects they were crucial for the accurate representation of the living language.
The caighdeán spelling reforms were based on blunt rules laid down to be applied across the board, with scant regard paid to the actual pronunciation of spoken Irish leaving us with an orthography which conflicts with the pronunciation of every Gaedhealtacht area (attempts to cobble together a 'Lárchanúint' to match the new written language clearly demonstrate this).
I see this as emblematic of a wider shift in focus away from native language, spoken and written, and towards the language of the 'professionals' (translators, civil servants, academics, etc.).
Most of the 'development' in recent decades has been increasingly centred around this group (generally people for whom Irish is a language into which English is translated) - their needs and their Irish.
Authentic Irish idiom and vocabulary gradually falls out of use, replaced by calques of English idiom and the many thousands of gaelicisations of English terminology introduced into Irish vocabulary. The thinking seems to be that for every word in the English dictionary, Irish must have a corresponding word with precisely the same semantic range. If it doesn't, that's a fault in the Irish language, the remedy to which is the adoption of yet another English word. Job done!

I'd hate to come across as overly negative or critical. The existence of professionals who use the language (a large number of whom have a very high command of the language and genuine desire to benefit it in any way they can) is great, I have no issue with it. Rather it's the dominance of this group over Irish and its development, and their establishment of an artificial 'official standard' form of the language, which I object to.

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(SL)(GM)

Primarily idiom, and Irish based on the usage in actual Gaedhealtacht regions rather than 'standard'.

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(SL)(GM)

Like Murchadh said, calques from English and a lack of appreciation of both the range of sounds and how best to write them. Western and Donegal Irish can't work right with just 2 L and 2 N sounds and Donegal has many 'derivative' diphthongs on verbs that arise from the -idh at the end coming after a vowel.

It would be interesting if the language could be mapped out and 'weighted' to see if a Koine was possible (a mixture of dialects)

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