Liturgical Irish

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Redwolf wrote:

Thanks...you've hit on the grammar points I was unsure of (And a few I just plain missed! For some reason I cannot get my ancient brain to remember that "ar" causes an initial mutation!).

Redwolf wrote:

The pronunciation I've given is mostly based on the fact that patchshorts and I have a similar dialect of English. As a West Coast U.S. English speaker if I see "TIN-eh," for example, I'm going to pronounce that first syllable if I were saying "tin whistle." The Irish "t," even when speaking English, is quite different from how we articulate it here. So I'm taking what I hear in Irish and trying to render it as closely as possible to something that would make sense to someone here.

Redwolf

That's why your the best person to represent the Irish sounds :yes:

Murchadh wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Murchadh wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Eistigí anois, le háit na spiorad seo

Would that not mean 'the place of these spirits'?

That's what I thought the OP wanted? No :dhera:

The OP's English originals were:
Listen now, to this place of spirits.
Listen now to this place of elders.
Listen now to this place of gods.

The original translation, making 'spirits' definite, looks OK to me.
Éistigí anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad

To keep 'spirits' indefinite, perhaps the following would work?:
Éistigí anois, leis an áit spiorad seo.
(áit spiorad - place of spirits)

For me, that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If I saw that, or heard someone say that, I would think that they got their Irish mixed up and they were trying to say "listen to this spiritual place" i.e. an adjective. I may be wrong on that.

The question is, whom/what are you suppose to be listening to; the spirits in the place or the actual place itself, which in English doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

If your suppose to be listening to the place, then;

Éistígí anois le háit na spiorad seo listen now (let ye) to this place of the spirits (literal translation)

I suppose, in the translation Éistigí anois leis an áit spiorad seo, your just rearranging the article, but it seems like a very awkward way of saying it to me :??:

that's the thing with translating, its inevitable that both languages are going to put in on each other, that's why translations very rarely work, in my opinion.

or if you're meant to be listening to the spirits themselves, who are part of this place, then I think it should be:

Éistigí anois le spioraid na háite seo listen now (let ye) to the spirits of this place (Literal translation)

Cian

Redwolf · **Posted:** Tue 08 Jul 2014 6:44 pm

Actually, there was a double article in the original (Éistigí, anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad). I felt it was necessary because "an áit seo" ("this place") was a single unit: ["this place"] ["of the spirits"]

Redwolf

Murchadh · **Posted:** Tue 08 Jul 2014 6:51 pm

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

For me, that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If I saw that, or heard someone say that, I would think that they got their Irish mixed up and they were trying to say "listen to this spiritual place" i.e. an adjective. I may be wrong on that.

The question is, whom/what are you suppose to be listening to; the spirits in the place or the actual place itself, which in English doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

If your suppose to be listening to the place, then;

Éistígí anois le háit na spiorad seo listen now (let ye) to this place of the spirits (literal translation)

I suppose, in the translation Éistigí anois leis an áit spiorad seo, your just rearranging the article, but it seems like a very awkward way of saying it to me :??:

that's the thing with translating, its inevitable that both languages are going to put in on each other, that's why translations very rarely work, in my opinion.

or if you're meant to be listening to the spirits themselves, who are part of this place, then I think it should be:

Éistigí anois le spioraid na háite seo listen now (let ye) to the spirits of this place (Literal translation)

Cian

I see what you meant now. It's certainly an excellent option for the OP.
I was attempting to be as close as possible to the meaning of the English sentence in the suggestion I gave above - he mentioned wanting to be sure they were 100% correct. As you say, the most literal translation is often not the best.

Murchadh · **Posted:** Tue 08 Jul 2014 6:53 pm

Redwolf wrote:

Actually, there was a double article in the original (Éistigí, anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad). I felt it was necessary because "an áit seo" ("this place") was a single unit: ["this place"] ["of the spirits"]

Redwolf

I'd agree with you there.

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Murchadh wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

Actually, there was a double article in the original (Éistigí, anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad). I felt it was necessary because "an áit seo" ("this place") was a single unit: ["this place"] ["of the spirits"]

Redwolf

I'd agree with you there.

I don't think I fully understand where your coming from, there hasn't been a double article used in Irish since the Old Irish period and even then it was an extremely rare occurrence. A double article is considered unnatural in Irish with the last 800 yrs.

Cian

Redwolf · **Posted:** Wed 09 Jul 2014 2:46 am

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Murchadh wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

Actually, there was a double article in the original (Éistigí, anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad). I felt it was necessary because "an áit seo" ("this place") was a single unit: ["this place"] ["of the spirits"]

Redwolf

I'd agree with you there.

I don't think I fully understand where your coming from, there hasn't been a double article used in Irish since the Old Irish period and even then it was an extremely rare occurrence. A double article is considered unnatural in Irish with the last 800 yrs.

Cian

Because it isn't actually a double article.

Redwolf

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Redwolf wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Murchadh wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

Actually, there was a double article in the original (Éistigí, anois, leis an áit seo na spiorad). I felt it was necessary because "an áit seo" ("this place") was a single unit: ["this place"] ["of the spirits"]

Redwolf

I'd agree with you there.

I don't think I fully understand where your coming from, there hasn't been a double article used in Irish since the Old Irish period and even then it was an extremely rare occurrence. A double article is considered unnatural in Irish with the last 800 yrs.

Cian

Because it isn't actually a double article.

Redwolf

Oh ok, I think I'm having a brain fart, can you explain why its not, sorry if I'm being a pressed.

Errigal · **Joined:** Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm **Posts:** 715

The double article is allowed (but not mandatory) with demonstrative pronouns in phrases of that sort: (an) gleann seo na ndeor; (an) fear sin an hata.

I don't think it has anything to do with it being a single unit though. You may be thinking of double genitives there, Redwolf?

Redwolf · **Posted:** Wed 09 Jul 2014 3:07 pm

Errigal wrote:

The double article is allowed (but not mandatory) with demonstrative pronouns in phrases of that sort: (an) gleann seo na ndeor; (an) fear sin an hata.

I don't think it has anything to do with it being a single unit though. You may be thinking of double genitives there, Redwolf?

That's very possible. I'm rather muddled these days (fighting a bug)

Redwolf

Redwolf · **Posted:** Tue 15 Jul 2014 5:14 pm

So where are we with these, folks? Anyone else care to take a look at them?

Redwolf

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