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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012 11:22 pm 
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Saoirse wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Personally I prefer -
Nollaig Mhaith

To me Nollaig Shona sounds like Béarlachas. :mrgreen:
8O Really! Next you are going to tell us that Santa isn't real..... :cry:



:LOL:

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012 12:32 am 
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I'm planning for a Nollaig shúgach (merry Christmas) myself. :guiness:

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 1:50 am 
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Awesome guys. Thanks for the responses.

Does anyone know what exact grammatical tenses "Bíodh" and "Go raibh" are?

I know subjunctive is in there somewhere. And so might the imperative mood...

Briain.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 8:33 am 
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Raibh is a present subjunctive, used for making wishes (and occasionally after certain conjunctions like go = until). Literally May be. Actually Go is the subjunctive particle, which proceeds the subjunctive when expressing a wish or hope.

Of course, in form, it is identical to the dependent form of the past, the form that comes after particles like .
Ní raibh sé = He wasn't.

Bíodh is an imperative, an order. Literally Let be. To take Breandán's example:

Bíodh ciall agat = Let sense be at you = Have sense.

This form of the verb (for the verb bí) is very similar to two other forms:

1.
Do bhíodh, the habitual past.

Do bhíodh áthas air = There used to be happiness on him = He used to be happy.

2.
Do bíodh, the past autonomous.

Cad é sin dúinne cé ’cu a bíodh socair air nó ná rabhthas. = What do we care if it was settled or not.
More literally:
What do we care if X settled it or X did not settle it.
With X some unspecified agent or agents, usually clear from context, although it can be used as a way of avoiding mentioning who did it.

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 10:08 am 
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The term "subjunctive" is often applied to this, but it's a label of convenience and not technically correct, for two reasons:

1) It's not a unique conjugation, it's just the dependent form of the past (preterit). It's tempting to say it's a different conjugation because it "doesn't have an independent from", but that's a circular argument because it starts on the assumption it's a different thing from the past.

2) It doesn't act like the subjunctive does in other languages. (Fuller explanation available on request.)

The term subjunctive in the end doesn't help the learner much, and I've seen in confuse more learners of Scottish Gaelic than it has helped. (Thankfully, it's a term that's almost dead in Scottish Gaelic teaching now.)

"Go" is a conjunction, and if you consider is as such, it follows that there has to be something before it. That clause is dropped because it's "obvious" to the native speaker what it is: "I hope", basically.

Now in English we've lost that connection and most of us interpret "Have a nice day" as a command (English used to have a true subjunctive which was closely related to the imperative) which leads to mistranslations into most other languages


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 10:11 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Now in English we've lost that connection and most of us interpret "Have a nice day" as a command (English used to have a true subjunctive which was closely related to the imperative) which leads to mistranslations into most other languages

Or more correctly, in English we've dropped the conjunction "I hope you have a nice day" -- hardly anyone ever says "I hope that..." in normal speech. "That" would have been the equivalent to "go" -- hence the (English speaker's) confusion.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 10:49 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:
The term "subjunctive" is often applied to this, but it's a label of convenience and not technically correct, for two reasons:

1) It's not a unique conjugation, it's just the dependent form of the past (preterit). It's tempting to say it's a different conjugation because it "doesn't have an independent from", but that's a circular argument because it starts on the assumption it's a different thing from the past.

I'm possibly wrong on this, but I don't think it's a dependent form of the past, it just so happens that for the verb the past dependent and the subjunctive have the same form.

For instance take the sentence:
Fan go dtagad = Wait until I come
or in the other dialects:
Fan go dtaga mé = Wait until I come

Even for the verb you can see a difference between them, using the synthetic forms.

An áit i n-a rabhas = The place in which I was. (Past dependent, first person.)
vs.
Go rabhad i Ríocht na bhFlaitheas = May I be in heaven. (Subjunctive, first person.)

Maybe we shouldn't call it a subjunctive though. I know what we call the dative case is really a prepositional case.

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 11:23 am 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Even for the verb you can see a difference between them, using the synthetic forms.

An áit i n-a rabhas = The place in which I was. (Past dependent, first person.)
vs.
Go rabhad i Ríocht na bhFlaitheas = May I be in heaven. (Subjunctive, first person.)

Maybe we shouldn't call it a subjunctive though. I know what we call the dative case is really a prepositional case.

Well if it works that way, then it may actually be a subjunctive.
(That'll teach me to open my big mouth.)

Is there a difference between (for example) "I think that he's here" and "I don't think that he's here" or "I think that he's here" and "I know that he's here"?


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 12:16 pm 
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Quote:
Well if it works that way, then it may actually be a subjunctive.
(That'll teach me to open my big mouth.)

I just read a few sources (The Celtic Languages from Cambridge University Press being one), which seem to say that there isn't a subjunctive in Scots Gaelic and that it really is just a dependent version of the indicative forms as you said. So maybe Irish is more archaic in keeping an genuine separate subjunctive form.

Quote:
Is there a difference between (for example) "I think that he's here" and "I don't think that he's here" or "I think that he's here" and "I know that he's here"?

No difference in the second clause, which I guess is what you are looking for.

Ceapaim go bhfuil sé anseo = I think that he is here.
Tá 's agam go bhfuil sé anseo = I know that he is here.


If I'm guessing right, could be totally wrong, the Romance languages would use a subjunctive in one of these. I guess then Irish has a subjunctive restricted in usage compared to other languages. It only appears after wishes, curses, hopes and certain conjunctions such as sara (lest, i.e. lest he come).

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec 2012 1:31 pm 
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I won't get into the discussion as to whether it should be called the subjunctive or not. The following is to help beginners and refers to the CO.

What I was taught in school about 30 years ago is that go raibh, go dtaga etc. is The Modh Foshuiteach (Láithreach). We never translated the grammatical terms (or anything much else) into English.

The Modh Foshuiteach is used:
(i) chun guí a chur in iúl - Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar a anam
(ii) chun tagairt a dhéanamh d'am éiginnte sa todhchaí - Fan go dtaga d'athair abhaile

Other than go raibh, you can get the correct form by looking at the present tense (second person singular).

With first conjugation verbs leave one vowel after the first syllable: briseann...go brise / glanann...go nglana.
With second conjugation verbs leave the long vowel: ceannaíonn...go gceannaí / bailíonn...go mbailí


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