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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 2:01 am 
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Aislingeach wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
Although, the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is a valuable protector of the language


well, to me it's an artificial dialect that tends to replace the genuine dialects ie. the real Irish language... so it's not a protector of the language, but rather a danger... And anyway, according to the Handbook of the C.O., it shouldn't replace the dialects (well, it wasn't meant to do it, according to the authors), although it's what happens, since dialects aren't being taught... and the C.O. is being taught even to native speakers...


Aontaim leat, a Lughaidh. :good: I have no use for the C.O.; I wish to learn real Irish. I will learn the C.O. whether I wish to or not, simply because it is so ubiquitous. But my time and effort will be spent studying real Irish.


I commend you on your stand to learn a dialect :good: and I agree with you. That is why I did the work on this thread so that people who wanted to learn the language could have the option of studying real Irish i.e a dialect. I would have done the same for any dialect. :yes:

The quote above is taken completely out of context of my overall introduction.

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by An Cionnfhaolach on Thu 30 Aug 2012 2:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 2:07 am 
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Aislingeach wrote:
Nice work! :good:


Bríd Mhór wrote:
Go raibh míle maith ad as ucht na moltaí a Chian.
Tá fáilte roimh thuairimí nua i gconaí.

Saoirse wrote:
:yes:


Breandán wrote:
That's great, Cian. :good:

I was only just thinking, "we need to get those links together and place them in the Nascanna/ Naisc Úsáideacha section", but work as been busy. I was going to ask Saoirse to do it for me, but you've saved her a lot of work. :darklaugh:


Glad to have helped and lightened the load. Good to hear your busy at work! Does everyone agree with the layout? Any suggestions for making it better? Feel free to say so!

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by An Cionnfhaolach on Thu 30 Aug 2012 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 2:11 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
Although, the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is a valuable protector of the language


well, to me it's an artificial dialect that tends to replace the genuine dialects ie. the real Irish language... so it's not a protector of the language, but rather a danger... And anyway, according to the Handbook of the C.O., it shouldn't replace the dialects (well, it wasn't meant to do it, according to the authors), although it's what happens, since dialects aren't being taught... and the C.O. is being taught even to native speakers...


:LOL: I knew you weren't going to be to far behind with a comment ;) :LOL:

I agree with you in so many ways, I personally dislike the Caighdeán for what it is doing, as you know I'm an avid supporter of Gaeltacht Irish, but I can see in some part that it was necessary. I was trying to be diplomatic. The caighdeán was meant only to be a mode of writing rather than a mode of speech, it doesn't provide guidelines for pronounciation. For instance you don't get penalised for speaking dialectal Irish in the Irish Oral State Examination's test. You do however get penalised for writing in your native dialect, which I believe is wrong. But one of the objectives of the caighdeán was to ensure teachers from Donegal and Dublin could correct and understand people from Munster and vice- verse.

This came about because there wasn't enough authoritative teachers to correct Irish in their individual dialects. How often has there been a debate about a mistake on here?, only to find out its a dialectal variation. Even today I think there is only 2 or 3 teachers that are able to correct history tests that are taken through Irish

As Irish doesn't have a speaking and pronounciation standard; the caighdeán was therefore never meant, at the beginning, to replace the dialects that were there. But as the Gaeltachts are weakening they are slowly turning away from the Irish being spoken as the language of the home and the community and therefore Irish is not being learned through a natural process, instead Gaeltacht children are learning their language in an artificial school setting where their only example to follow is an artificial language. What a shame! :bash:

The main problem with the language is not entirely the Caighdeán its the way its being thaught and who its being thought by. Personally I believe a lot of teachers are to put it bluntly "shite!", I know there is a culture of just blaming teachers but believe me I've seen it myself. Don't get me wrong there are also some brilliant teachers, we have one here ;). These "bad" teachers are themselves victims of bad teaching practices. Pronounciation in school is awful to put it mildly. Our school system is not designed to fix the problem i.e actually communicating. Lately there has been a "big change" well it looks like there has been a big change from the outside in.

The Irish oral is now worth 40% of the Irish marks. Great you might say to yourself, but when you actually dissect it, there is no major difference or benefit. It is actually just a "dumbing down" of the language in order to fix the bell curve, as the written test has changed dramatically as well as the amount and standard of the literature to be studied. The oral before the "amendments" was 15 min long, where at least 8 mins was spent on speaking the language. Now its still 15 min but the time spent conversing in Irish has actually decreased because during the exam students must read a paragraph or two from a a possible 5 poems they have studied throughout the year. That takes about 2 min, then they must have a "conversation" learned off from a possible 20 picture diagrams. The student and examiner then interact by answering and asking each other 2 questions each based on the pictures- that's at least 5min gone.

This amendment is not fare to the students, who were taught and designed to process large amounts of literature all through the school system i.e primary to secondary and then all of a sudden they find themselves sitting a test that they were not built or taught for. That is not fair on them either. Its also going to turn them off in the end, I believe, a modern day Peig Sayers. For this to work, teachers need to be of a standard that they feel comfortable themselves in conversing through Irish (its no secret that some teachers conduct their class through English :rolleyes: ) and the curriculum is going to have to change from the bottom up not just from the top and then expect students to adapt to the leaving Cert test that they have been preparing for all of their school lives!

I personally don't like the Caighdeán, but it is not correct in entirety to blame it for replacing dialects. If the dialect remained the spoken language of the home and community the Caighdeán should not have affected her, and as I said above Gaeltacht children are having to learn Irish in school and therefore they learn school Irish. That said Gaeltacht children are very proud of their own dialect and the differences within their dialect. BUT, they can't be proud of the dialect the ancestors used to have when their parents/ grandparents have failed to pass it on. And that is the truly sad thing! :/ :cry:

When I was told in 2nd year (of secondary school), after class from my Irish teacher, that we were not learning or speaking proper Irish I got extremely angry to which I asked her "why the fuck have I spent 11yrs of my life studying shite and why aren't we taught proper Irish, the way they speak in the Gaeltacht and the way it was suppose to be spoken?"- to which she had no reply. I remember feeling so angry, I actually felt betrayed! And ever since then I have questioned everything.

My opinion of the Caighdeán has slightly improved since then, when I learned it wasn't too difficult to switch, the main problem was with pronounciation and to run away from Béarlachas and directly translated English. So, ya, I basically had to re- teach myself again.

I have personified Irish as a person who was in a car crash (the accelerated decline of Irish before and immediately after the famine). Irish had two choices- die or be confined to a wheelchair (Caighdeán or revival). Their is also the emotional trauma that occurs due to a crash like this which can mirror the traumatic effects of language shift. As it is clear from written sources that the Irish loved their language. Irish might never walk or run/ be what it once was. My true fear is it will become just a means of translating English, as Manx has become. Although, miracles do occasionally occur and it is down to people (such as many on this form) to make this miracle happen. Through the speaking of Irish as the language of the home and of the community and I think people like Saoirse should be commended to the high- heaven for bringing their children up with Irish. Hope this analogy doesn't offend, it really wasn't meant to.

We have kinda gotten away from the point of the thread, but a good argument merits a good discussion.


Very well said Cian :yes:

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 10:47 am 
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Very well said, indeed. :yes:

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 1:12 pm 
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I just wanted to add that there's Conchur from Corca Dhuibhne on Forvo that you can listen to (as well as some other very distinguished speakers of other dialects, I could mention)
http://fr.forvo.com/user/Conchur/


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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 9:19 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
I was only just thinking, "we need to get those links together and place them in the Nascanna/ Naisc Úsáideacha section", but work as been busy. I was going to ask Saoirse to do it for me, but you've saved her a lot of work.
Jees. You step away from the forum for a minute and there's all sorts planned for you! :mrgreen: Fair dues for all the organising, Cian.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug 2012 10:42 pm 
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Quote:
I have personified Irish as a person who was in a car crash (the accelerated decline of Irish before and immediately after the famine). Irish had two choices- die or be confined to a wheelchair (Caighdeán or revival).


to me it's as simple as this: Irish should remain as it always was, ie. dialects transmitted from generation to generations. So, the dialects should be taught, and used for translations etc, and there was no reason to create an artificial dialect. And to me, local texts should be written in the local dialect, and national stuff should be translated into one of the dialects, in a way that is understandable for most (if not all) Irish speakers. Btw in RnaG, people speak in their dialect and they all understand each other, so it shouldn't be too difficult. And I guess most people would be happy with that. Because nowadays, many people don't like standard Irish. Most people who use standard Irish, in my opinion, use it because they don't have choice (because they couldn't learn a dialect because most books are in the Standard, or because they think the standard is better... because it is standard, but if the standard were Connemara Irish, they'd be as happy or happier with it, etc).
After all, the historical language of Ireland is Irish as it has been spoken in the Gaeltachtaí for centuries, it's not Irish as it was created in offices 60 years ago...

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2012 9:21 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
So, the dialects should be taught, and used for translations etc, and there was no reason to create an artificial dialect.

As soon as Irish was mentioned in the constitution as the "first official language," An Caighdeán Oiffigiúil was needed. When you're dealing with official records and legislation, you need vey precise and consistent language. You can't have judges from different parts of the country overruling each other because the law has different shades of meaning in each dialect.

My own opinion is that the Standard should be treated like Legalise English, something that is taught to law students and civil servants, but not to school children and foreign tourists.

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2012 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
As soon as Irish was mentioned in the constitution as the "first official language," An Caighdeán Oiffigiúil was needed. When you're dealing with official records and legislation, you need vey precise and consistent language. You can't have judges from different parts of the country overruling each other because the law has different shades of meaning in each dialect.


The words that are used in law etc in standard Irish today, either are words taken from one dialect, or are newly created terms. So I don't see any difference...

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug 2012 5:20 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
to me it's as simple as this: Irish should remain as it always was, ie. dialects transmitted from generation to generations. So, the dialects should be taught, and used for translations etc, and there was no reason to create an artificial dialect. And to me, local texts should be written in the local dialect, and national stuff should be translated into one of the dialects, in a way that is understandable for most (if not all) Irish speakers.


That is the way it was before the "Caighdeán" where official documents had to be translated into the 3 dialects. This was proving to be expensive and taking up to much time. Irish language legal legislation is still lagging behind the English today, where one translation has to be made. There was a court case recently where a bar that kept breaking the law by staying open past the allowed closing time successfully argued that the legal legislation that they were being prosecuted for was not available in Irish and was therefore in breach of Bunreacht na hÉireann. Their case was thrown out of court. There has also been cases where the translated Irish did not match the English and these cases also had to be thrown out because of such technicalities.

On the national level which dialect just be chosen? Cork and Munster Irish was seen as the language to become the official State language because it was seen as the most conservative and the closest to older Irish. Would you Lughaidh or any Connacht or Ulster Irish speaker be happy with that- to say in so many words that their dialect is inferior to Munster Irish. I personally don't like the concept of it. The Caighdeán was seen as the middle ground combining various nósanna from each dialect- admitingly taking examples heavily from Connacht Irish as it was seen as the bridge between Munster and Ulster Irish. However, you may rightly argue very little nósanna were taken from Ulster Irish.

I agree, in theory, that dialects should be taught, but there is not enough teachers that successfully fill the brief. That was also the case in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s and early 60s where the answer was if you were a native Irish Gaelic speaker then you almost qualified to teach in schools, because at the time all classes where thought through Irish and they needed the teachers to do this. This was an unjust and unsuccessful solution. Also, as I outlined earlier there was not enough authoritative teachers to correct exams in their specific dialect. Exams are spread as far away from their source as possible to prevent a teacher knowing a student who they are correcting- which is very possible in a small country such as Ireland. Therefore, they needed a language that everyone would learn and that would have national rules. Which was needed because, as you know yourself, a form or spelling maybe incorrect in one dialect but not in another.

Lughaidh wrote:
Btw in RnaG, people speak in their dialect and they all understand each other, so it shouldn't be too difficult. And I guess most people would be happy with that. Because nowadays, many people don't like standard Irish. Most people who use standard Irish, in my opinion, use it because they don't have choice (because they couldn't learn a dialect because most books are in the Standard, or because they think the standard is better... because it is standard, but if the standard were Connemara Irish, they'd be as happy or happier with it, etc).
After all, the historical language of Ireland is Irish as it has been spoken in the Gaeltachtaí for centuries, it's not Irish as it was created in offices 60 years ago...


They do understand each other, but that's due to the work of facilities like RnaG which has allowed speakers to become accustomed to each other and also due to the Caighdeán Oifigiúil that has replaced many of the dialectal idioms and forms of each dialect- which the very thought of is disgusting to me as well but as I outlined earlier that should not have occured if the dialect was passed on from generation to generation. But even today, Munster speakers find it notoriously difficult to understand Ulster speakers and I would imagine it would be the same vice- verse.

I agree with you that the resources for learning a dialect are few and far between and that is a disgrace but the official teaching of Irish is thought through the Caighdeán because of the reasons I have outlined above and in my other answer. In a perfect World students would learn one of the true dialects as you and I have chosen to do.

Even in other countries, lets take Spain as an example, where their official Standard is Catellano granted it is actually a real language or dialect of Spain. Catellano is only one of the many dialects of Spain but many learners tend to learn Catellano because it is the recognised language and everyone in Spain should therefore theoretically be able to understand them and speak back to them. Catellano is often disliked in areas were it wasn't the historical language spoken and it was forced upon them during the time of the Franco dictatorship. People therefore prefer to learn the Caighdeán because it should theoretically be understood by all Irish speakers even if it is disliked by many native dialectal speakers.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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