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 Post subject: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Sun 16 Feb 2020 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 5:12 pm
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Location: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Does An Lon Dubh still frequent the forum?

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Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.


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 Post subject: Re: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Thu 20 Feb 2020 9:11 am 
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I'm here alright Aislingeach.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Sun 23 Feb 2020 1:58 pm 
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Location: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Wonderful! Are their grammatical rules as to when one would use 'táid siad' in lieu of other options?

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Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.


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 Post subject: Re: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Mon 24 Feb 2020 7:13 pm 
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Aislingeach wrote:
Wonderful! Are their grammatical rules as to when one would use 'táid siad' in lieu of other options?


I’m not An Lon Dubh nor anywhere nearly as knowledgeable, but I happen to have Ó Sé’s Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, so at least I can tell you what Ó Sé claims about such forms in Dingle Irish. ;-)

First, in the section for the verb (§530, An briathar , p. 271) he gives tɑː ʃiːəd tá siad, tɑːd´ táid, and tɑːd´ ʃiːəd táid siad as possible 3.pl. forms, and he does so for every verb and verb pattern (cloiseann siad, cloisid, cloisid siad, ceanglaíonn siad, ceanglaíd, ceanglaíd siad, etc.).

Then regarding the choice of synthetic vs analytic forms:
Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, Táite agus scartha, §§561–563, pp. 310–312 wrote:
561 (…) Má fhágtar an 3 ua. as an áireamh is féidir paraidímí an bhriathair a rangú mar seo a leanas de réir líon na bhfoirmeacha táite a thagann i gceist iontu: caite (5 fhoirm), ordaitheach (5 fhoirm), gnáthchaite agus coinníollach (4 fhoirm), fáistineach (4 fhoirm: éigeantach san 1 iol., roghnach san 1, 2 ua., annamh sa 3 iol.), láithreach (4 fhoirm: éigeantach san 1ua. agus iol., annamh sa 3 iol., annamh sa 2 ua.).

[If 3rd sg. is left out, it’s possible to classify the verb paradigms the following way in regard to the number of synthetic forms that are relevant to them: past (5 forms), imperative (5 forms), past habitual and conditional (4 forms), future (4 forms: compulsory in 1st pl., optional in 1st, 2nd sg., rare in 3rd pl.), present (4 forms: compulsory in 1st sg. and pl., rare in 3 pl., rare in 2nd sg.).]

Uaireanta bíonn foirm scartha sa 3 iol. gnáthchaite agus coinníollach, m.sh. n´iː haɡəx | ʃiːəd koː ɡ´ar´ɪd´ don´ l´ɑːn ní thagadh, siad comh gairid don Oileán (6) (…)

[Sometimes analytic form is used in 3rd pl. habitual past and conditional, eg. …]

562 Tá rogha idir foirm tháite agus foirm scartha sna pointí seo a leanas de réimniú an bhriathair (taobh amuigh den 3 iol. gnáthchaite), á léiriú le foirmeacha de cuireann:

[There is a choice between a synthetic form and an analytic form in the following points of verb conjugation (apart from 3rd pl. past habitual), illustrated with forms of cuireann]

Láithreach 3 iol. [pres. 3rd pl.]: kir´ɪn´ ʃiːəd cuireann siad ~ kir´ɪd´ cuirid
Fáistineach 3 iol. [fut. 3rd pl.]: kir´hɪ´ ʃiːəd cuirfidh siad ~ kir´hɪd´ cuirfid
Fáistineach 1 ua. [fut. 1st sg.]: kir´hɪ m´eː cuirfidh mé ~ kir´həd cuirfead
Fáistineach 2 ua. [fut. 2nd sg.]: kir´hɪ tuː cuirfidh tú ~ kir´hɪr´ cuirfir

Nuair a dhéantar macalla ar bhriathar, is é sin i ndeireadh abairte nó i bhfreagraí, is ea is mó a bhaintear úsáid as na foirmeacha a bhfuil an foirceann ɪd´ iontu, m.sh. ˈfain´ ʃiːəd ˈanˈar´ an | ˈfaid´ faigheann siad an-aire ann, faighid (1), n´adər ɪ n´in´ɪn´ ʃiːəd nuː nɑː d´in´ɪd´ n’fheadar an ndeineann siad nó ná deinid (3), A. An íosfaidh siad é? B. iːsɪd´ | iːsɪd´ íosfid, íosfid (…) Sampla nach bhfuil ina mhacalla is ea kahɪd´ ɪ v´eh oun caithfid a bheith ann (5). Cé gur dócha go bhfuil claonadh ann foirmeacha táite a úsáid i bhfreagraí, má tá siad ar fáil, ní riail dhocht í sin, féach an comhrá: A. ɪ ɡ´iːhɪr´ ɪ ɡ´arəˈmɑːnəx əmɑːr´əx an gcífir an Gearmánach amáireach? – B. k´iːhɪ m´eː cífidh mé (7). Sampla suimiúil d’fhoirm scartha in eireaball abairte is ea v´iː ʃeː ʃeː nuː ʃax də v´l´iːənə | ˈfɑːkə m´eː bhí sé a sé nó a seacht de bhliana, fágfaidh mé (1); dealraíonn sé nach mbaintear úsáid as an bhfoirm tháite sa chás sin.

[When a verb is echoed, that is at the end of a clause or in replies, it is the most common case where one uses the forms with the ending ɪd´, eg. … An example that is not echoing is … Even though there seems to be a trend to use synthetic forms in replies, if they’re available, that’s not a strict rule, look at conversation… An interesting example of an analytic form at the end of a clause is… It appears that one doesn’t use a synthetic form in that case.]

563 Is féidir forainm pearsanta a bhfuil feidhm ainmní aige a úsáid i ndiaidh foirm tháite sna cúinsí seo a leanas:

[It is possible to use a personal pronoun functioning as a subject after a synthetic form in the following situations:]

(a) siad i ndiaidh an fhoircinn -id sa 3 iol. láithreach agus fáistineach ag roinnt de na cainteoirí ba shine, m.sh. ʃ in´ eː mər əhɑːd´ ʃiːəd is in é mar atáid siad (8), b´iːd´ ʃiːəd ɪɡ´ ihɪ ruːmpə bíd siad ag ithe rompu (5), əs doːxə nɑː ɡaid´ ʃiːəd ənsun ɪn´eːxər ɪn´iʃ is dócha ná gaibhid siad ansan in aon chor anois (8).

[(a) siad after the ending -id in 3rd pl. present and future by some of the oldest speakers, eg…]

(b) foirainmneacha eile i ndiaidh foirmeacha táite eile, ach sos beag a bheith idir an briathar agus an forainm, m.sh. aˈn´hoːr´ | tuː n´ ʃanəfuːkə pail´ nɑː b´eɡ´ ɡə ma aithneoir, tú an seanphúca paill ná beidh go maith (3), nuːər´ ə xir´hɪr´ | tusə ɡə d´iːd xiːr´ɪ heːn´ eː nuair a chuirfir, tusa, go dtí do chaoire féin é (reithe) (4).

[(b) other pronouns after other synthetic forms, but a small pause is between the verb and the pronoun, eg…]


In the parentheses after the examples there is a number indicating the speaker who made the given utterance. Speaker (1) is from An tSeantóir, born before 1920, (2) from Baile na hAbha, born before 1930, (3) from Com Dhíneol/Muiríoch, before 1920, (4) from Baile Ícín, before 1920, (5) from Baile an Chalaidh, before 1920, (6) from An Blascaod Mór, before 1920, (7) from An Baile Uachtarach, before 1940, (8) from Gleann Loic, before 1900.

So I’d say that forms like táid siad are no longer used in Kerry, but were used instead of regular analytic forms like tá siad. Analytic forms (tá siad, in older speakers táid siad) are used in regular statements and questions and synthetic forms (táid) are used when echoing the main verb.

Also, the corkirish blog claims that in older Cork Irish literature táid siad is the only form used (replaced by tá siad in modern usage) on its táim page (but you probably have seen that).

Then in an 18th c. song, An tSeanbhean Bhocht, (but not sure where it’s written) you have:
na Francaigh [ag] teacht thar sáile |
arsan tSeanbhean Bhocht | x2
táid ag teacht le soilse ré
’s beid anso le fáinne an lae
(…)


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 Post subject: Re: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb 2020 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun 11 Sep 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 279
Location: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Thank you for your response and the information. However, I am not certain that 'táid siad' has fallen out of usage, as I have seen An Lon Dubh use it. Hence my question to him. Thanks again! :GRMA:

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Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.


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 Post subject: Re: An Lon Dubh
PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2020 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
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It would be used still Aislingeach, but mostly by older people (~80 years old). There's no grammatical rule to it really, it's just an alternate form that some people would use.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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