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PostPosted: Sun 24 Nov 2019 9:05 pm 
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I'm new to this forum. I'm working on a novel, and one of my characters is Irish. I have placeholder Google translations for now and planned to review them very meticulously at a later stage, but as I'm about to submit pieces of my manuscript draft to MFA programs I'm starting to worry that, by chance, someone who reads them might speak Irish and be terribly offended or appalled... The novel starts in a public house in Tralee. The text I have currently is:
“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man. “Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” (which should roughly translate to "You there, with the fancy coat. Why so gloomy?")
“Cuirfidh mo chara aoibh gháire ar d'aghaidh,” said his companion, pausing for effect, “lena dhorn!” (My friend will put a smile on your face...with his fists!)

And I know this dialogue is no good - a placeholder in concept, too. The situation is two men, drinking heavily, in a tavern and noticing a stranger who's well dressed. The year is 1843. The two Kerry men are kind of sussing him out and antagonizing a bit - does he speak Irish (he doesn't, or not enough to understand them), what sort of man is he. Eventually I'd be looking for something much more authentic to the Irish language and to the place and time, so if anyone has got better ideas for these two lines of banter, I'd be very grateful, too!


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PostPosted: Mon 25 Nov 2019 10:28 pm 
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kathun wrote:
I'm new to this forum. I'm working on a novel, and one of my characters is Irish. I have placeholder Google translations for now and planned to review them very meticulously at a later stage, but as I'm about to submit pieces of my manuscript draft to MFA programs I'm starting to worry that, by chance, someone who reads them might speak Irish and be terribly offended or appalled... The novel starts in a public house in Tralee. The text I have currently is:
“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man. “Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” (which should roughly translate to "You there, with the fancy coat. Why so gloomy?")
“Cuirfidh mo chara aoibh gháire ar d'aghaidh,” said his companion, pausing for effect, “lena dhorn!” (My friend will put a smile on your face...with his fists!)

And I know this dialogue is no good - a placeholder in concept, too. The situation is two men, drinking heavily, in a tavern and noticing a stranger who's well dressed. The year is 1843. The two Kerry men are kind of sussing him out and antagonizing a bit - does he speak Irish (he doesn't, or not enough to understand them), what sort of man is he. Eventually I'd be looking for something much more authentic to the Irish language and to the place and time, so if anyone has got better ideas for these two lines of banter, I'd be very grateful, too!


Yeah, you can't really use Google Translate for this sort of thing, or anything for that matter.
That said, there are dialogues in Irish of such situations or phrases that are usable although you'd have to change them or give credit to the authors to avoid plagiarism. I'll have a look around. Wait for more input from others.


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 3:03 am 
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Agreed - Google Translate isn't much help in any language, but I imagine it's particularly lacking in Irish. I don't borrow whole phrases (anything I'd use here would need to be original), other than what I've researched as being specific curse words/phrases.

Changing the original to something a bit simpler, so looking for corrections to:

“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man.
His companion pointed to Barra and said, almost as loudly, “An dóigh leat go bhfuil an scóip chomh dúr agus a bhreathnaíonn sé?”
("You there, with the fancy coat!"
"Do you think the fop is as stupid as he looks?")

Any synonym works for "fancy," "fop," "stupid," etc. The idea is that the story is being retold by a modern-day person, so I think it's fine if the Irish strays to more modern usage. I can't faithfully re-create the 1840s English, either...

I'm also looking for corrections to:
An Caillte Amháin - The Lost One
sreang imleacáin - umbilical cord

Is there any word in Irish for a "mainlander"? (i.e., something someone from a small island off the coast of Ireland would call someone who lived on the Irish mainland?)


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 10:40 am 
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kathun wrote:
“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man. “Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” (which should roughly translate to "You there, with the fancy coat. Why so gloomy?")


I'd understand "You there" as a form of informal (inpolite?) addressing.
But "Tá tú ann" isn't. It is a sentence meaning "You are there", "You exist" :)
I don't think "tú" (you) is used as a form of addressing in Irish at all.
So, probably something as "A fhir ansin leis an gcóta sainiúil!" (lit. "o man there with ... !") will do.

“Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” - sé means "he" but what you want is "tú" (you)
So: Cén fáth a bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin? (sin, because chomh, so, needs some reference)
In Kerry, cad ’na thaobh (or canathaobh) is used for "why" (instead of cén fáth)
So: Cad ’na thaobh go bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin?

Quote:
“Cuirfidh mo chara aoibh gháire ar d'aghaidh,” said his companion, pausing for effect, “lena dhorn!” (My friend will put a smile on your face...with his fists!)


Except that "lena dhorn" means "with his fist" (singular, one fist, plural: lena dhoirne = with his fists), this seems okay.


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 2:47 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
kathun wrote:
“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man. “Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” (which should roughly translate to "You there, with the fancy coat. Why so gloomy?")


I'd understand "You there" as a form of informal (inpolite?) addressing.
But "Tá tú ann" isn't. It is a sentence meaning "You are there", "You exist" :)
I don't think "tú" (you) is used as a form of addressing in Irish at all.
So, probably something as "A fhir ansin leis an gcóta sainiúil!" (lit. "o man there with ... !") will do.

“Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” - sé means "he" but what you want is "tú" (you)
So: Cén fáth a bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin? (sin, because chomh, so, needs some reference)
In Kerry, cad ’na thaobh (or canathaobh) is used for "why" (instead of cén fáth)
So: Cad ’na thaobh go bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin?

Quote:
“Cuirfidh mo chara aoibh gháire ar d'aghaidh,” said his companion, pausing for effect, “lena dhorn!” (My friend will put a smile on your face...with his fists!)


Except that "lena dhorn" means "with his fist" (singular, one fist, plural: lena dhoirne = with his fists), this seems okay.


casóg is used more often for coat in Munster. Galánta is also more common than sainiúil, sainiúil seems more like a 'specific coat', or a 'special' coat for undertaking a specific task.

'haigh, túsa ansan, a fhir leis an gcasóig ghalánta'

'Canathaobh go bhfuil gruama ort?' or canathaobh go bhfuil pus ort; pus is a sulky facial expression.

Cuirfidh mo chara miongháire ar t'aghaidh ... lena dhorn / dhoirne / dhoirnibh.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov 2019 3:33 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
kathun wrote:
“Tá tú ann, leis an gcóta sainiúil!” shouted one man. “Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” (which should roughly translate to "You there, with the fancy coat. Why so gloomy?")


I'd understand "You there" as a form of informal (inpolite?) addressing.
But "Tá tú ann" isn't. It is a sentence meaning "You are there", "You exist" :)
I don't think "tú" (you) is used as a form of addressing in Irish at all.
So, probably something as "A fhir ansin leis an gcóta sainiúil!" (lit. "o man there with ... !") will do.

“Cén fáth a bhfuil sé chomh gruama?” - sé means "he" but what you want is "tú" (you)
So: Cén fáth a bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin? (sin, because chomh, so, needs some reference)
In Kerry, cad ’na thaobh (or canathaobh) is used for "why" (instead of cén fáth)
So: Cad ’na thaobh go bhfuil tú chomh gruama sin?

Quote:
“Cuirfidh mo chara aoibh gháire ar d'aghaidh,” said his companion, pausing for effect, “lena dhorn!” (My friend will put a smile on your face...with his fists!)


Except that "lena dhorn" means "with his fist" (singular, one fist, plural: lena dhoirne = with his fists), this seems okay.


casóg is used more often for coat in Munster. Galánta is also more common than sainiúil, sainiúil seems more like a 'specific coat', or a 'special' coat for undertaking a specific task.

'haigh, túsa ansan, a fhir leis an gcasóig ghalánta'

'Canathaobh go bhfuil gruama ort?' or canathaobh go bhfuil pus ort; pus is a sulky facial expression.

Cuirfidh mo chara miongháire ar t'aghaidh ... lena dhorn / dhoirne / dhoirnibh.

Cian


:good:


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov 2019 10:08 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

casóg is used more often for coat in Munster. Galánta is also more common than sainiúil, sainiúil seems more like a 'specific coat', or a 'special' coat for undertaking a specific task.

'haigh, túsa ansan, a fhir leis an gcasóig ghalánta'


I don't find more than one or two examples of "t(h)usa" as a form of addressing in literature.
So, I doubt this usage, at least in 1840s Ireland.
And "hi" (haigh) as well. That wasn't even used in English.

Quote:
'Canathaobh go bhfuil gruama ort?' or canathaobh go bhfuil pus ort; pus is a sulky facial expression.


Gruama is an adjective. It can't be "ort".


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2019 2:46 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

casóg is used more often for coat in Munster. Galánta is also more common than sainiúil, sainiúil seems more like a 'specific coat', or a 'special' coat for undertaking a specific task.

'haigh, túsa ansan, a fhir leis an gcasóig ghalánta'


I don't find more than one or two examples of "t(h)usa" as a form of addressing in literature.
So, I doubt this usage, at least in 1840s Ireland.
And "hi" (haigh) as well. That wasn't even used in English.

Quote:
'Canathaobh go bhfuil gruama ort?' or canathaobh go bhfuil pus ort; pus is a sulky facial expression.


Gruama is an adjective. It can't be "ort".


The word "hi" has been used since Late Middle English, according to the Oxford Dictionary.

So, instead of "tusa", what would you use?

Foclóir has "haigh tusa" so would it be so wrong to stretch the imagination and use it in this case?
Or what phrase would you use to express "Hey, you there!"


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2019 12:02 pm 
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T(h)usa ansin ! With or without the H. Personally I would say that. But it may be Béarlachas I don't know.

Haigh - I suppose you could use it, you don't have to have perfect 19th century Irish, it is used today. What about the Scots Gaelic "Aye", I don't know how you'd spell that in Irish though, maybe "Aigh".


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec 2019 5:25 am 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
The word "hi" has been used since Late Middle English, according to the Oxford Dictionary.


Not as a call/greeting. This first developed in early 20th century. (acc. to https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=hi)

Quote:
So, instead of "tusa", what would you use?

Foclóir has "haigh tusa" so would it be so wrong to stretch the imagination and use it in this case?


In Germanic languages, at least in English or German, forms like "Du (da)!" or "You (there)!" are normal and used very often. They are so normal that you don't think about it and expect them to exist in other languages, too.
But usage of personal pronouns as "vocatives" in calling people is very limited in many languages.
E.g. in Spanish it is impossible to call someone "¡Tu (ahí)!" (except "tu" is subject of the following sentence) And you can't use "ты!" in Russian. 2nd person pronouns must be part of sentences.

According to de Bháldraithe and Ó Dónaill you could say "Tusa ansin!" (Here you!" or "You there!") in Irish.
But in Corpas Nua na hÉireann there are only two (!) items of "T(h)usa ansin!" I would expect dozens of examples in English or German corpusses.
So, it is obviously rare in written Irish - so rare I doubt that Irish is (was?) like English in this respect and modern "Tusa ansin!" being probably a Béarlachas.
And remember: It is impossible to say "You, my friend" or "You idiot" in Irish. it is just "A chara" or "A amadáin".

These are just my thoughts.
Nevertheless, "Tusa ansan!" might had been normal in 1840's Kerry spoken Irish. Who knows?

Quote:
Or what phrase would you use to express "Hey, you there!"


If I can't use pronouns, I'd use nouns:

Hé, a fhir ansan!


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