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PostPosted: Tue 19 Nov 2019 7:37 pm 
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Location: Corcaigh
Hi all!

On the grammar wizard at teanglann.ie, when you select certain prepositions with a noun, it gives two mutation options based on either the lenition or central system. Is the difference dialectal or are both accepted in the official standard? I suspect it’s the former, but if it’s the latter then what determines which system should be used and where? The site isn’t too clear on this.

Also, I understand the naming of the lenition system - it lenites - but what does “central” refer to? I’ve never heard of nasalisation or eclipses being called centralisation?
:??:

Thanks in advance,
Adrian.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Nov 2019 1:51 am 
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Yeah, it's dialectal, in the Caighdeán, lenition only occurs after the definite article in the dative singular after de, do, and i, eclipsis occurs otherwise (also note that, aside from h-prothesis, mutation never occurs after the article in the dative plural). In different dialects, however, it's different, eclipsis never occurs at all in Ulster, and other dialects simply have different patterns, see here for examples. "Central system" must refer to the fact that it's the standard, I don't know why it simply isn't referred to as the "Caighdeán system".


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Nov 2019 5:00 pm 
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Central system doesn't make sense, it's not central linguistically speaking, nor geographically speaking :-)
The Caighdeán is an artificial dialect of Irish...

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Nov 2019 7:01 pm 
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Artificial, yeah, but when it becomes official, it becomes the center in a very real way.


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PostPosted: Mon 25 Nov 2019 4:39 am 
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Thanks for the confirmation. It did seem strange to refer to the caighdeán as “central”. Official status or not, central is not a term that I’d have ever associated with it.


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 12:27 am 
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Yeah, as I said, I don't know why it isn't simply referred to as the Caighdeán system.


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 10:11 am 
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Esszet wrote:
Yeah, as I said, I don't know why it isn't simply referred to as the Caighdeán system.


Because both systems (leniting and "central") are officially part of the Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)
See: https://webarchive.oireachtas.ie/parlia ... l-2017.pdf
IIRC, in some older CO versions (2012?) even an all-eclipsing system was mentioned.


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PostPosted: Tue 26 Nov 2019 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
Artificial, yeah, but when it becomes official, it becomes the center in a very real way.


Not to me.

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2019 11:02 pm 
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Well, Ade, there's your answer, they're both part of the Caighdeán, and it must be referred to as the "Central system" because it's geographically more central (as I said before, the lenition system is really only found in Ulster) and it's apparently preferred anyway, grma, a Labhráis, I didn't know that. And, a Lughaidh, it may be completely artificial, but when it's the form used by the government, taught in school, and expected to be used by the general population (to the extent that it is used), it is the center, even if it is made up.


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