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PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019 4:50 pm 
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"Afaik most young Gaeltacht speakers speak better English, and more often English, than Irish."

Yes there are studies which show this.

One of the problems is that the Gaeltachts were never really protected areas, and nobody had the balls to say "You have to have passed a comfortable level of fluency in Irish to live here."

It's got to the point where it's too late to do that now, as there is a critical mass of English speakers already there.

Some researchers have concluded that the only way to save Irish as a community language now is to build new villages or communities just for them and to have protections in place this time. (The government decided to ignore the conclusions of these researchers by the way, they decided that their twenty year plan was better.)


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PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2019 10:35 pm 
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(The government decided to ignore the conclusions of these researchers by the way, they decided that their twenty year plan was better.)


= shocraigh siad go rabh a bplean níos éifeachtaighe leis an teangaidh a mharbhadh.

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2019 2:29 pm 
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I suppose there are some similarities like there are amongst all the European languages to a certain extent. But there are more differences than similarities, and I don't think speaking English helps at all with learning Irish. If you spoke Hebrew or Arabic you might have a better understanding, especially of the CH sound, but also syntax.
I'm a native Conamara Irish speaker, and I learnt English from an early age so I can say I acquired it naturally too. Almost always you can tell when people are speaking Irish as a second language, there are exceptions of course. But that's not surprising most people will have an accent when speaking a learnt language. I'm very aware that my French pronunciation is far from perfect much as I'd like it to be I still can't do it. It was the same when I was trying to learn Welsh, I couldn't pronounce some sounds that weren't in Irish, especially the LL sound in the middle of a word.
You won't notice it today with native Irish speakers as they all learn English very young, and there is television and other media etc. But in previous generations where people learnt English as an adult or had little experience in using it daily you could tell from their English that Irish was their first language, they had a particular accent.

Native speakers don't mind if you can't do it perfectly, the important thing is that you try your best, and not be condescending to natives.

I notice the nasalisation in Breton too, I thought it was a French influence.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Aug 2019 11:10 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
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The reason I ask is that I was watching videos of Breton speakers, and they all sounded French to my ears, and to the ears of many in the comments. But there were some Breton posters in the comments insisting that they didn't sound French!


Aye, I noticed that English speakers often say Breton speakers all sound as it they are speaking French, while French speakers themselves would never say it.
A friend of mine (native English speaker, fluent in Breton and French) told me it was mainly because of the nasal vowels. Breton shares most of its sounds with French so to English speakers it's enough to say they sound as if they were speaking French. But French speakers only say that of non-native speakers of Breton - these indeed pronounce everything like French (it's like "Urban Irish": 100% English sounds).
Because native Breton has enough phonetical features that don't exist in French: certain vowels don't exist in French, certain consonants too, the stress is much stronger in most dialects than in French, there are long vowels, etc. Maybe these aren't enough for an English speaker to say "it sounds different from French" :)

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What about the speech of native Munster speakers? Can you hear English influences phonetically on them? To me the phonemes and accents of Connacht and Donegal speakers seem stronger, but I have grown up my whole life around strong Munster (Kerry (family) , Cork (annoying friend) , Limerick (grew up) and Clare (lived rurally years)) accents. So to me the accents of these areas all seem quite neutral/normal.


Most of the Munster speakers I heard use the English r (instead of both Irish r's or only instead of the broad one), even native speakers (eg. the singer Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh). That's always shocking to me to hear Irish with an English r sound :)



Ok, I think I know what an English R sounds like, but I'm not sure. Maybe you can help me.

This boy singing below, his R's are clearly English one's aren't they?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNGUMHsIN1g


And also, I know the English R is quite widespread in Munster, but can you hear it in the conversation below? The men speaking are as native as you will find in West Kerry.

https://mobile.twitter.com/buailtin/sta ... 7160754177


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PostPosted: Thu 29 Aug 2019 12:19 pm 
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I notice the nasalisation in Breton too, I thought it was a French influence.


I think it existed in all Celtic languages but it has disappeared of most now. It's still normal in Breton and can be heard in the speech of older speakers in Irish, and also in Sc. Gaelic.

Quote:
Ok, I think I know what an English R sounds like, but I'm not sure. Maybe you can help me.

This boy singing below, his R's are clearly English one's aren't they?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNGUMHsIN1g


Aye, most of his r's are as in English (but I heard at least one "normal" ie. one-tap r)

Looks like the guys of the twitter video use the one-tap r's all the time - féar plé daobhtha :)

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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