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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jul 2019 2:24 pm 
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Where did the g come from in Cois Fhairrge Irish where 'uile' became 'uilig'?

And similarly how did the b come about at the end of things like acu/acub and orthu/orthub?


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jul 2019 9:46 pm 
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I think the -ig of "uilig" may come from "uile go léir" analyzed as "uilig go léir". We also say that in Donegal.

Concerning the -b, no idea...

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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jul 2019 1:39 pm 
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oisin wrote:
Where did the g come from in Cois Fhairrge Irish where 'uile' became 'uilig'?


Actually, the pronunciation is /il´ug/:)

Quote:
And similarly how did the b come about at the end of things like acu/acub and orthu/orthub?


Once there were dative and accusative forms of prepositions.
-a or -u as in acu is accusative, -bh is dative (e.g. still so dóibh = to them), -bh has changed to -b: dóib, acub


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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jul 2019 9:46 pm 
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Quote:
oisin wrote:
Where did the g come from in Cois Fhairrge Irish where 'uile' became 'uilig'?


Actually, the pronunciation is /il´ug/:)


it doesn't change anything, that "uile go léir" is interpreted as "uilig go léir" or "uiliug go léir"...

Quote:
Quote:
And similarly how did the b come about at the end of things like acu/acub and orthu/orthub?

Once there were dative and accusative forms of prepositions.
-a or -u as in acu is accusative, -bh is dative (e.g. still so dóibh = to them), -bh has changed to -b: dóib, acub


interesting... How have you learnt that? I don't think I've read anything about that!
But were "do" and "de" the only prepositions that were followed by the dative (they are the only ones that have -bh in the 3pl pronominal form : díobh and dóibh in standard Irish) ? I don't remember...

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Thu 25 Jul 2019 10:28 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
interesting... How have you learnt that? I don't think I've read anything about that!
But were "do" and "de" the only prepositions that were followed by the dative (they are the only ones that have -bh in the 3pl pronominal form : díobh and dóibh in standard Irish) ? I don't remember...


Many prepositions were used in dative (rest) or accusative (motion)

e.g. Old Irish for (Mod. ar)
foraib = on them (dative)
forru = on(to) them (accusative)

or Old Irish i
indib = in them (dat.)
intiu = in(to) them (acc.)


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PostPosted: Fri 26 Jul 2019 12:07 am 
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Thank you guys. My question is answered but please continue the conversation. It is very interesting to read for me. Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jul 2019 12:58 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
And similarly how did the b come about at the end of things like acu/acub and orthu/orthub?

Once there were dative and accusative forms of prepositions.
-a or -u as in acu is accusative, -bh is dative (e.g. still so dóibh = to them), -bh has changed to -b: dóib, acub
Labhrás wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
interesting... How have you learnt that? I don't think I've read anything about that!
But were "do" and "de" the only prepositions that were followed by the dative (they are the only ones that have -bh in the 3pl pronominal form : díobh and dóibh in standard Irish) ? I don't remember...


Many prepositions were used in dative (rest) or accusative (motion)

e.g. Old Irish for (Mod. ar)
foraib = on them (dative)
forru = on(to) them (accusative)

or Old Irish i
indib = in them (dat.)
intiu = in(to) them (acc.)


interesting... How have you learnt that? I don't think I've read anything about that!
But were "do" and "de" the only prepositions that were followed by the dative (they are the only ones that have -bh in the 3pl pronominal form : díobh and dóibh in standard Irish) ? I don't remember...


In Old Irish, the prepositions which took the dative and the accusative depending on motion were: fo, for, ar, i.

An example of this phenomenon is probably best found in the petrified forms:

isteach and istigh, i.e. i (preposition) + historical s + teach 'house/ dwelling'.

Isteach is the form used with verbs of motion (accusative), e.g. chuas isteach, ag dul isteach.

And istigh, i.e. stationary (dative/ Latin locative): tháim istigh, bhíos istigh.

The same phenomenon occurs with amach (accusative) and amuigh (dative): which literally mean 'into/ to plain'.

The other prepositions were governed either by the dative or the accusative.

Prepositions with dative included:

a 'out of'; di and do; fíad 'in the presence of'; íar 'after'; ís 'below'; ó/ úa 'from'; oc 'at'; ós/ úas 'over/ above'; re 'before'; co 'with' (cf. co 'to').

Prepositions governed by the accusative included:

amal 'like/ as'; cen 'without'; co 'to'; eter 'between'; fri (later ri/ re 'against'; im 'about'; la 'with'; sech 'past'; tar/ dar 'across/ over'; tri/ tre 'through'.

When a preposition was combined with a definite article, the following noun was either lenited (dative), or eclipsed (acc.), and the noun was declined using the appropriate case (dative, or acc.):

e.g.

Marb[h]ais Conn ingin n-álaind ind ríg cosin chlaidiub b[h]ecc 'Conn killed the beautiful daughter/ girl of the king with the small sword'.

cosin = co 'with' + historical -s- + in (masc. dative def. art.)

Chlaidiubh = The 'c' is lenited because the previous preposition is governed by the dative [dative lenites]. -iubh: -u-quality is added to masculine/ neuter o-stem nouns, which later becomes -o- (cf. ós cionn); the nom. is claideb. The adjective is also lenited as it too is governed by the dative in this case.

contrast:

Marb[h]ais Conn ingin n-álaind ind ríg las(s)in [g]claideb mbecc

Here la governs the accusative, so when followed by the definite article, it eclipses the following vowel/ consonant: hence gclaideb.

Accusative/ dative distinction was also true for plurals:

Marb[h]sait laich Cuinn ingin n-álaind ind ríg cosnaibh claidb[h]ib[h] beccaib[h] '... with their small swords (dative plural)'.

Marb[h]sait laich Cuinn ingin n-álaind ind ríg la(s)sna claidbiu beccu '... with their small swords'.

Hence why, as Labhrás was saying, -u/ -o/ -a is used with prepositional pronouns that were governed by the accusative (e.g. leo; whereas those governed by the dative end in -ibh, e.g. dóibh).

When the distinction between accusative and dative began to fall together in the vernacular, around the beginning of the Middle-Irish period (though evidence for this is earlier), the dative case came to the fore; however, confusion arose whether lenition or an eclipse should follow prep + def. art., and hence why today:

Northern dialects prefer: prep + def. art. + lenition, e.g. ag an fhear

Southern dialects prefer: prep + def. art. + eclipse, e.g. ag an bhfear.

Sometimes the distinction between the dative and accusative lived on in highfalutin bardic poetry (Classical Irish).

Labhrás wrote:

Quote:
And similarly how did the b come about at the end of things like acu/acub and orthu/orthub?


Once there were dative and accusative forms of prepositions.
-a or -u as in acu is accusative, -bh is dative (e.g. still so dóibh = to them), -bh has changed to -b: dóib, acub


There were only dative and accusative 3rd singular and plural endings for those prepositions (pronouns) that governed both the acc. and dative (see above for list).*

All other prep. pronouns only had either a dative or acc form.

*All person might have declined in a similar way in an earlier form of the language, but no examples of these survive, or are known to have survived.

I don't think acub ending is a remnant of Old Irish, as oc only ever took the dative and never the acc.

The Old-Irish paradigm for oc is as follows:

ocum
ocut
occo/ occa (masc. and neuter)
occ(a)i/ oc(c)ae (fem.)
occu(i)nn
occaib (2nd plural)
occaib (3rd plural)

If we compare the third plural occaib with the Conamara isoglossic form acub, we can see they're unrelated. If Old Irish, 3rd plural occaib had survived in Conamara Irish, then it would be pronounced as 'agaibh' (agaib) (cf. the second plural above).

In the Middle-Irish period, the distinction between acc. and dative waned, so in prep. pronouns governed by both the accusative and dative, the 3rd person pl. acc. form remained, whereas the dative 3rd plural died off:

e.g. for (Mod. ar):

2nd plural:fo(i)rib
3rd plural: forraib (dative); and forru(acc.).

This transition was aided by the fact that the 2nd and 3rd plural dative forms are indistinguishable, so only using the acc. third plural provided a definitive means of differentiating between the two.

In prep. pronouns that governed the dative only, the same phenomenon occurred (de/ do being obvious exceptions):

2nd plural: oc(c)aib
3rd plural: occaib --> occu (occa).

If we look at eDIL, it gives the following forms for the third plural:

ocaib, LU 3243 , 9166 . occo, 8874 , 9018 , 9094 . oc(c)a, oc(c)u, acu.

LU stands for Lebor na hUidre, a linguistically and thematically composite manuscript (our earliest vernacular MS) compiled c. 1150 AD (terminus ante quem), but contains texts from both the Middle- and Old- Irish period: //celt.ucc.ie/published/G301900/

Here we can see occaib being used in earlier texts, and occu/ occaib being used interchangeably even in some Old Irish texts (e.g. Fled Bricrend (Old Irish): occaib 9166/ occo: 8874). We have to be cautious as redactors are known to have added our rewritten earlier parts using the language of their own day.

eDIL also gives Mod. aca. octhaib from Ériu (academic journal) iv 144.1 (i.e. story: 'The Settling of the Manor of Tara'), but explains that the latter example is 'a late analogical form'.

It seems to me that acub is therefore the usual acu form found in Modern Irish + the suffixing, through analogy, of the 3rd plural-b(h) of díbh and dóibh.

Cian.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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