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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec 2011 7:36 pm 
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I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book or resource that could give me a basic foundation for pronunciation. I was hoping to get some very basic guidelines, so when I see a word I would be able to make somewhat of an educated guess as to how to pronounce it. (Connacht would be nice.)

For example, I've noticed when a vowel follows an S, the S usually sounds like an "sh" in English. (I could be wrong on this, it's just a pattern I've noticed on the Buntús Cainte mp3s). So, if this is indeed true, it would be helpful to know early on. I'd also like to know which letters consistently drop or become silent. And is the R always tapped? Does "mh" always sound like an English "w"? Just stuff like that. (You don't have to answer these, they're just a few examples of questions I have.)

Apologies if this has already been asked. I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Go raibh maith agat!
(I hear "guh ramma haggit" with a slight trill on the R, and I can reproduce it, but I have no idea if it's right or not.)

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec 2011 12:36 am 
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Quote:
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book or resource that could give me a basic foundation for pronunciation. I was hoping to get some very basic guidelines, so when I see a word I would be able to make somewhat of an educated guess as to how to pronounce it. (Connacht would be nice.)

There are a lot of sources, but this "Beginner's Guide to Irish Gaelic Pronunciation" site might be just what you need at this stage:
http://www.standingstones.com/gaelpron.html

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec 2011 12:39 am 
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"Learning Irish" has a great introducton to pronunciation with soundfiles by Gaeltacht natives. If you are keen to learn Connemara Irish, it is the best text available.

All of your suppositions are correct except that the sh sound only comes after a slender vowel (e or i). Irish consonants have two sounds, "broad" and "slender", determined by whether the surrounding vowels are back vowels (a, o, u) or front vowels (e, i).

In Connemara, broad mh is a w sound; slender mh is a v sound.

Also, when there are three vowels together like, -eái-, for example, the middle vowel is the main vowel, and the first and last are glides, in this case to keep the consonants before and after slender.

Irish spelling has a rule Caol le caol agus leathan le leathan. Slender with slender and broad with broad. Many of the vowels are there as "buffers" to keep this rule. For instance, in buíochas, the u and the o respectively keep the b and ch broad. *Buíchas would break the rule.

Try looking at the words again with broad and slender in mind ...

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[hr]Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher[/hr]
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec 2011 3:42 am 
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Ahhh... some light bulbs going on here. Very helpful link. I'm going to study all of it.

I've seen broad and slender discussed here and until now it's all gone over my head. This is exactly the type of thing I need.

I know Connemara is its own thing, but is it also a subdialect of Connacht?

I'm practicing my R tapping. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I don't. If I think about it too much I can't do it. But I've been wondering--if I'm trying to speak and I happen to not tap the R, will what I'm saying sound like gibberish, or will it just sound like an American accent?

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec 2011 2:42 pm 
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mimerim wrote:
I'm practicing my R tapping. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I don't. If I think about it too much I can't do it. But I've been wondering--if I'm trying to speak and I happen to not tap the R, will what I'm saying sound like gibberish, or will it just sound like an American accent?

The latter. ‘Urban Irish’ (a generic term used for the Irish spoken by people not in/from the Gaeltacht areas) often ends up substituting an English r for the tapped one.

And even in Gaeltacht Irish (in the north, anyway), r is often closer to the English r than to a tapped one before certain consonants; ort ‘on you’, for example, is commonly pronounced as [ʌɹt] rather than [ʌɾ(ə)t]. (In IPA, [ɹ] = English r; [ɾ] = tapped r)

Also, if you speak some variant of more or less generic American, you’re actually quite used to making the tapped r—you just don’t think of it as an r. It’s the sound that’s made by a t between consonants in American English, as in ‘matter’, which is pronounced [ˈmæɾɚ]. If you try saying that (not overly clear, just as you’d say it when speaking quickly) a few times and notice the sound in the middle of the word, and then try to disassociate that sound from the fact that in your head you’re saying a t, that can help you to more regularly and reliably tap your r’s properly. :)

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Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011 2:44 am 
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Quote:
in American English, ... ‘matter’ ... is pronounced [ˈmæɾɚ].


Umm, not so, a kk! America has a few non-rhotic areas, like New England and parts of the South, but most Americans pronounce final r's very strongly, unlike most Brits.

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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011 2:32 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
Umm, not so, a kk! America has a few non-rhotic areas, like New England and parts of the South, but most Americans pronounce final r's very strongly, unlike most Brits.

Yes, that’s why I included it in the IPA.

[ɚ] is a rhotacised schwa, as opposed to [ə], which is a regular schwa (how Brits would normally pronounce it).

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Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011 4:47 pm 
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kokoshneta wrote:
Also, if you speak some variant of more or less generic American, you’re actually quite used to making the tapped r—you just don’t think of it as an r. It’s the sound that’s made by a t between consonants in American English, as in ‘matter’, which is pronounced [ˈmæɾɚ]. If you try saying that (not overly clear, just as you’d say it when speaking quickly) a few times and notice the sound in the middle of the word, and then try to disassociate that sound from the fact that in your head you’re saying a t, that can help you to more regularly and reliably tap your r’s properly. :)


Matter. Wow. Yes. And now I think I may have been overdoing the Irish R. It's just a flip of the tongue. I think?

If I can find the courage, maybe I can record myself and have you guys tell me how badly I'm butchering it...

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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011 5:13 pm 
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Maybe we can all have a go. :yes:

kk, have you a few words that you might suggest for test purposes? My favourite is ríomhaire because it has a broad r and a slender r in it. Some more examples of both broad and slender would be good.

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[hr]Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher[/hr]
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011 5:22 pm 
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http://www.mediafire.com/?makcayzycgaozgw

Here is a file that I made years ago that gives you an idea now to pronounce the sounds, though it does not address the caol le caol, leathan le leathan rules, nor phonotactics

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